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Weapons you want in game

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    That could be a neat work around for it, and it would explain a lot of the weapons that very clearly have suppressors on them (like the new Ariadna AP Rifle, just naming one off the top of my head). Would you want it to be a universal rule or for a handful of profiles like skirmishers or elite units?

    And I think there has to be a little abstract quality to the ranges, because I'm finding it hard to see snipers deploying to cover a fire lane only 50-75 meters long. With 300m, you start to see why rifles might have such a steep negative for shooting over 32" and why snipers don't really suffer negatives at the extreme ranges.
     
  2. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Yeah, I guess there kinda has to be abstraction somewhere. Pistols and shotguns are sort of close I guess for effective ranges at about 30m that way, but perhaps to prevent shooting being too effective ranges are a bit nerfed on everything else.

    Not sure how suppression could work at all TBH. Universal would probably complicate things too much though, so probably a handful is better.
     
  3. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Active Member

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    It's an interesting idea i think, though my comment was just a general kinda academic question. I sadly don't see that happening, i kinda hoped there would be more way to play "stealthily" aside from marker status.

    Also i imagine at this time the tech probably evolved to the point where suppressors are probably reaching movie quiet level of silent, i mean, it already exist after all (even if it's a super specific gun like the Welrod, and other similar subsonic guns)
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Not anywhere near as quiet as you'd expect, suppressors make things go from "causing immediate hearing damage" to "Damn, that was loud!" Still close to 120 decibels with the suppressor.


    Physics suggests that you're not going to get much quieter, as long as you are using any kind of chemical propellant.

    And if you're using a rail/coilgun, the supersonic crack of the bullet ain't silent.


    Suppressors are to allow you the shooter to hear when the guy next to you is trying to tell you there is a bad guy to your right, or to prevent you from making yourself deaf while clearing rooms. They do NOT make things movie-quiet.


    The Welrod is a very specific, hyper-specialized example, and is a bolt action, not semi-auto. It's also very limited in how effective it is, due to being .32ACP. Most of the instruction in how to use it was "put it in contact with the back of the target's head and pull the trigger" and no, I am not joking about that. If it was semi-auto, the action cycling and loading the next round makes a lot of noise. If you don't have convenient access to firearms in your country, an automatic pistol cycling is about as loud as someone slamming a padlock closed, hard.




    I'm pretty sure that Infinity is using telescoping range bands (especially in N3), since any assault rifle is "point&click"** to 300m, and a pistol is really only useful to about 8m. Someone who really knows what they are doing can get hits beyond that, but even a friend of mine who has been to a national-level shooting competition and scored really well there considers anything beyond 50 feet a very long shot with a pistol. That's 15m for the rest of the world.

    In N2 there was a chance that CB was using 1"=10m groundscale, based on the upper ranges of things like the HMG and Sniper Rifle, but pistols had way too long a range even then.

    ** By "point&click" I mean that at any distance with 300m, an assault rifle's shots will hit within about 3" vertically of point of aim. Pistols will be point&click to about 50 feet.
     
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  5. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    A long-range, linear DTW. Think Halo sniper rifle multikill. I want to do that, if I can line up the targets right, because it would be satisfying and make me happy.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I've tried one of those in 40k (Movie Marines Razorback lascannon). Even with over a hundred models per player, it was hard getting more than 2 targets hit. Can be done if you get around the flanks, but Infinity tables are vastly more terrain-dense than 40k Cityfights.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Replace all enemies with clear acrylic silhouette aides and shine a laser pointer through them! Love it!
    Unlike 40k, Infinity promotes Fireteams (and in some cases supporting cheerleaders) to group up along a wall. Usually when more than one model is hit by a Boarding Shotgun, in my experience, most of the secondary targets are standing in a neat line. Even if the railgun can only hit two models, that should be enough to force people to seriously reconsider how they place their models.

    Now, if I could please have a Yan Huo or Guijia with a Magnetic Cannon that's not Hyper, so I can use that bastard to Speculative Fire using Feuerbach range bands. Please?
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    So, a Slug Gun? Choice of ammo still applies in Specfire?

    If we're doing that, can we make it explicitly B2 or B3 even when SpecFired (as an auto-GL)?
     
  9. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    Auto GLs would be fun, especially on combat remotes or TAGs. Or maybe a variation in blast zone sizes? I think part of the reason the LGL's blast is so big is to account for several grenades being fired at once. Because then an auto GL could spit out 2+ smaller templates or something to that effect.
     
  10. InMac

    InMac Cat.IE~~

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    - Plasma mines.
    - Vulkan fire grenades.
    - AP grenades.
     
  11. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    True, but physics are a set of laws, and fork the police :stuck_out_tongue:

    It also occurs to me, if you're using a subsonic rail/coil weapon then all you've really done is build a hi-tech crossbow or airgun, haven't you? An adjustable velocity could be interesting, but pretty rare to use in Infinity.
     
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  12. FireFangs

    FireFangs Space Oni

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    A catapult!

    For real, some form of Ariadna crossbow could be interesting on the silent weapon subject.
    And perhaps some kind of fist weaponry for brawlers.
     
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    A .45ACP is subsonic (~850fps, about 80% speed of sound), works pretty well. .45 is just about ideal for shooting suppressed. It just sucks at greater-than-pistol ranges because you get some ugly ballistics with a .45, it's big and slows down quickly so rainbows significantly.

    Something supersonic usually flies better, but you can get fancy with something like the Russian 9x39mm, throwing ~260gr at 950fps (~17g at 280m/s). The long bullet that is smaller in diameter flies better. Really wish we could get those in the US.
     
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  14. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there is a way to generate a loud noise that "matches", even if the device "burns" every time, or every few uses. I mean now, not scifi handwaving. Think of it like flash bulbs of the old kind (up to mid 20th century or so) but in speaker sense, as active supressor. If you still don't get it, think noise surpression head gear (generate sound that is a negation of the noise) but "loud". At least it could make the noise a lot weirder and harder to identify as gun fire. "What was that blipblop?"

    Edit: processing should not be a problem, as it would know what kind of noise to look for, and could sync with the trigger. The issue I see is the volume required to match the sound left after passive supression.
     
    #274 Mob of Blondes, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Physically speaking, the problem with that is that it would require said speaker to surround the source of the noise completely, as it would need to read the input pressure fluctuations, then output the reverse signal in all directions at the exact same time the the source passes by the speaker.

    For a more concrete way to put it, imagine said speaker on the left side of the gun. It could mask the sound for anyone on that side of the shooter, but of anyone on the other side (or front, back, up, or anywhere else) will hear the sound of the source before the speaker and there will be no masking at all.

    Now include the fact that these projectiles produce sound as they fly through the air, and you've got quote a big conundrum on your hands. That said, I'm sure someone could come up with some futuristic hand-wavey rationale for it to exist.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I've seen a design for an electronic muffler for a car, but there's a big difference between 110 decibels of unmuffled gasoline engines (or nightclub/concert speakers) and 140-150 decibels of firearms muzzle blast. Every 10 decibels is 10x the intensity/pressure, so that would be 1000x to 10,000x the intensity of an unmuffled race car(!). I don't think speakers can do that, they just cannot push hard enough.

    If you use a subsonic projectile, like .45ACP or Russian 9x39mm, you don't have to worry about the sharp ballistic Crack! of the bullet flying. You can't really hear a subsonic bullet flying overhead unless it's tumbling after a ricochet. If you do hear a ricochet, it sounds like Peeeeernnnnnnnnn!, just like in the old Westerns. But that's an exception, not a bullet flying normally. Makes you cringe, but you should be much more afraid of hearing that Crack!, as that means someone is actually trying to hit you (as opposed to ricochets which are accidental instances of bullets going past you with no control over the direction they went after they bounced).


    Again, I think if you used a coilgun (NOT a railgun), like what the USN has been playing with, you could minimize the noise of firing as long as you dialed the power down to keep the projectile subsonic. There should still be the whine of the system charging, and probably a BZzap! from the actual firing. Due to how a railgun works, you'd have the noise of a small electrical arc when the shot leaves the muzzle. Coilguns should be much quieter.

    But most of Infinity's weapons are explicitly NOT rail/coilguns. Despite how they look, Morat weapons are explicitly conventional cased(!) ammo, and of Human weapons only the HRMC is explicitly an electromagnetic accelerator. Ariadnan weapons are explicitly cased, and I think Haqq weapons are as well, so the rule of thumb is plain 'rifles' are cased while 'combi-' and 'multi-rifles' are almost all caseless. EI Plasma guns are almost certainly electromagnetic, just to be able to shoot plasma at something. Shas guns could be, they have a very fat barrel, though that could also be an integral suppressor.
     
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  17. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Speakers. I was already imagining it like a horn collection, pointing everywhere or at least a wide zone. Or even one man band, with the system attached to the shooter. And of course, with subsonic bullets and already supressed weapon.

    The issue I keep on seeing is if there is one such thing capable of reproducing such counter wave, approximate enough to distort gunfire into something more silent and/or hard to recognize. Horns can do lot of noise, the issue is matching the "bang", not just going random "meeeeep".

    Interesting, some supressors use things like water or grease to help with the gases... and so, they are quickly "consumable". Infinity ones probably would have some kind of injector to fill before every shot. The more I think and investigate, the weirder it looks.
     
  18. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    A Standard Pistole shooting range in Germany is 25m about 80 feet. And hitting a 25cm circle (10 inch), at this range is quite easy. But i can't say for sure if it is difficult to hit a human sized target at this range. Targets with a Human on them are banned in Germany.

    I totaly agree with this. Only thing i can think of beeing movie-quiet, besides a Wellrod, is some .22 long rifle pistol. Someone in my Shooting club has one (really really illegal in Gemrany) and it is as loud as a Airgun. I think this would be the gun, a Assassin would use to kill someone in a Hotel.

    But this is one in the head, two in the heart. To make sure the guy is dead.
     
  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be honest, good old chemical propelling metal bullets is doing a very good job at killing flesh things for a low cost, no need to change it for higher tech weapons :)

    Same here in France. We can use animal sized metal target through - it's quite fun. But it's one thing to hit things in a shooting range (is that the correct word in english ?) where you can aim freely and nothing may be shooting back at you, it's another thing to shoot quickly at someone wanting to kill you. There are some long range pistol contests where they hit targets up to 200 meters, but they use specific high caliber guns (something like contenders in game - well it IS called contender irl)

    The shooting range where i used to go has range from 25m to 200m. It is rather easy to hit something at 200m with a .300 winchester magnum rifle. I tried shooting with a .357 magnum colt python, i was hitting the ground at least 1 meter around the target :p I'm not a good shooter through, but even then ... btw at that distance, you could totally hear the shot THEN see the impact, since the bullet is far slower than a rifle bullet. If i remember correctly, a .357 mag muzzle velocity is about 400 m/s, the .300 winchester rifle is about 900 m/s. Meaning if the target is moving, you absolutely have to take it into account.
     
    #279 Nenyx, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Unless you seal off that propellant in the case and use moving piston to pass the energy to the bullet while still keeping gases inside. You won't get said bullet to great speed, but remaining subsonic is an asset when you want things to be silent. IIRC this guy does that.

    You still has all kind of quieter noises, mostly from weapon's metal parts to worry about though. Unless the environment itself is noisy, they can be considered quite loud and maybe even distinctive - provided you know what to look for.