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Weapon Model/Brand Names in Infinity

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Del S, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    @RecklessPrudence you're talking about optimisation, not capability. A shotgun like the example in particular generates less heat than an automatic rifle, and has a much greater surface area on the barrel to radiate the heat. Any modern mil spec rifle will be able to handle a few thousand rounds in fullauto before they fail from heat in earth like atmosphere, that will translate into probably a few hundred rounds rapid in vacuum. The biggest difference would be the training of the meat behind the gun so that it can recognise the the signs of the weapons over heating, and maybe some kind of emergency liquid coolant to flush the bore with if you absolutely need to fire a few dozen more shots rtfn....
     
  2. RecklessPrudence

    RecklessPrudence Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, fair enough. Maybe a gun isn't vacuum-rated until it can tell the user it's reaching critical heat levels? Not an actual capability, as in it is literally unable to function in a vacuum without it, but a safety measure, since your environment suit had better have good enough heat handling capabilities just to function in sunlight that you wouldn't notice your weapon warm in your hands, and without an atmosphere there's no heat haze or anything, so you need displays to show that you're getting to dangerous levels of heat? And since it's so important, a gun isn't considered capable of vacuum operations until it has those displays and some basic vacuum optimisation, even though you could take a non-vacuum-rated weapon, go out the airlock and pull the trigger and it would fire? More of an OH&S regulations thing than a basic functionality thing.

    *shrug*

    That's how I'm rationalising it in my head, since as you say, any vaguely modern firearm is capable of discharging in a vacuum (for example, a matchlock probably wouldn't be able to, but anything with a percussion cap probably can - not sure where the cutoff point would be, not without a lot more research into old-timey guns).
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You haven't even gotten into lubricant boiloff or differential thermal expansion jamming the gun.

    And yet after 5 shots the shotgun's barrel will be hot enough to burn your hand.
     
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  4. RecklessPrudence

    RecklessPrudence Well-Known Member

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    *facepalm* Lubricant boiloff, how did I frickin' forget about that!? That's something that is not an optimisation problem, that's definitely a capability problem! I mean yeah, the gun might work for a couple shots after all the lube boils off immediately upon being exposed to vacuum, but unless the whole human sphere has built guns that need less maintenance than anything we have today, they're not going to work well or for long - and all the components of the lube that don't boil off are going to still be there, gumming up the works.

    And while thermal expansion can be a problem for any gun (much less nowadays, with better metallurgy than in pre-late-1800s guns that could have very serious problems from heat in just basic infantry rifles), in a vacuum, where the various parts of the machinery are going to share less of their heat, as they can only do conductive and radiative heat transfer? Yeah, the parts near the actual firing chamber are going to heat up well past other parts of the gun, as there's only so much conduction heat transfer can do with the lack of convective, and radiative sucks. So you might not only get parts that are precisely machined to tight tolerances expanding past those tolerances because their heat is not being transferred away efficiently enough, thus jamming, possibly in some very dangerous ways, but if it's really badly designed for vacuum operation you might get some parts softening before the gun jams - and when a part that is softened has the next round go off right near it...
     
  5. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention the recoil problem you might encounter at least in a Zero-G-Environment.
    Depending on how good your Mag Boots and your Space suit is.
     
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  6. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    Dry lubricant solves the first problem, and the thermal expansion problem is a few dozen rounds away, anyone who plans to fire more than that will either have true vacuum optimised weapons or they're probably high enough to think they can just hold their breath...
    Human skin burns a lot easier than steel. Shotgun tolerances are loose enough that I don't think thermal expansion would be a problem until the barrel is a nice cherry red.
    Actually firing the weapons won't be a problem, but ancillary actions will be, and home many times the gun fires might be too:
    • Recoil: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Unless you have a firm footing with magnetic boots or a tie down etc, then you will move back at the same time as the bullets go forward. More advanced EVA gear will be able to compensate, but practically anyone with that will have other options for weapons.(dammit @Paladin, I was getting to that... )
    • Extreme cold: In theory the cold in a dark spot is near absolute zero, which is cold enough to maybe stop a primer firing, but I don't think anyone will be waiting outside with their guns ready for long enough to cool them that much.
    • Reloading: infinity space suits are a lot less chunky than real ones, but under stress you lose dexterity, and reloading a tube magazine of a shotgun with gloves on is a challenge. Magazines are easier but people will still fumble more, training lessens but won't eliminate this.
    • Malfunctions: even in optimal conditions, things go wrong, and especially for ariadna who seem to still used cased ammo, the pressure an atmosphere puts on the outside of a round seems like nothing, but just a few more psi inside the case on firing is enough to pop a primer out or split the case. The lose primers or flakes of brass are likely to get into parts of the gun they're not meant to be in, and unjamming a hammer that's stuck in place with a primer is hard enough on a bench, trying to get at it while you're pinwheeling in the void and being shot at seems like fun...

    The actual solution isn't to change the gun, its to use a different gun.
    If you're going into a vessel then you won't need to worry about the vacuum for long, at most you'll be firing into a compartment that you just vented to make entry, and the standard rifle will do the deed.
    Actually fighting on the outside, that's a different game, and in the infinity lore that's best handled with handwavium tech a few generations ahead of Ariadna's gear..

    Edit: the solution just cam to me! Sub calibre semi self propelled ammo. Less thermal costs in the gun, and less recoil because its only a little kick to get the round moving and cycle the action, wind won't blow the rounds about like they would in atmosphere, and when you're inside a vessel etc you can swap magazines to regular ammo...
     
    #26 cazboab, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  7. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome :smiley:

    Damn presure difference. Just forgot this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

    I think i read somewhere that you could use this also under water.
     
  8. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    IIRC that was done with a rocket that a spear tip was screwed into from the muzzle, making it about as long to reload as a regular elastic band spear gun at about twice the cost up front and several other the cost per shot...

    If a follow up shot isn't required a spear gun is a good compromise for water, air and vacuum, but without handwavium it will be cheaper and more effective to carry a secondary weapon for the underwater/extra vehicular part of the your mission, and if the plan involves all three if its possible get a new plan...
     
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  9. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Oh, there are a few interesting ideas out there.

    Like H&K P11 handgun, which is intended for underwater operation, but I guess would work fine in vacuum, too.
    Or using self-propelled projectiles (effectively, rockets / gyrojets) with cold-launch (i.e. compressed neutral gas charge) to minimize both recoil and overheating problem - the actual propellant starts burning once the projectile has already left the barrel.
    Or use spring-powered weapons (perhaps using electric motors to re-cock) with spike-like projectiles (perfect for making holes in other people's pressure suits, though for actual antipersonnel effect you'd likely want these covered with some rapid-acting toxin).
    And since we are there - one pretty crazy idea I met was using actual paintball guns as personal weapons in space. Of course they'd need pretty nasty payloads to be effective (nanoware agents? Acid? Thermite charges? Explosive charges, HESH-like?), as they cannot rely upon kinetic energy of the projectile. And of course gravity feed magazines are a joke in zero-G (but they can be spring-fed, or use gas-pressure feeding). But you have a potentially lightweight weapon, with very little recoil, basically no overheating problem (propellant gas does actually cool down as it decompresses)...

    Of course, none of these are actual Infinity firearms, so not really relevant to this discussion :)
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Aren't Infinity Combi-rifles semi-coilguns, thus reducing heat produced by having smaller explosive charge?
     
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  11. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Never heard of this.

    In terms of Ariadna Guns, i doubt it. The seme like Standard Assault rifles you get nowdays.
     
  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Incidentally this for me is the difference between Ariadna Rifles and Haqq Rifles, the former are basically modern guns, the latter are highly advanced caseless firearms for use on Bourak, in vacuums etc but without the special targeting systems that define a combi-rifle. They're instead built to withstand the extremely harsh desert conditions on their homeworld.
     
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  13. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Caseless moste likely, but in general they look like just a really advanced Kalashnikov.
    New Materials, now Production technics but the good old tested Kalash.
     
  14. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    I can't think of anything that would prevent the p11 or really any other pepperbox still gun(except flint locks) working in vacuum, the only problem is if the battery gets too cold, and the relatively low ammo capacity- 5 rounds is a lot when the enemy has 1 spear or a knife, but against even some revolvers it's paltry.
    There was a concept a while ago called 'metal storm' that stacked ammo in the chamber and set it of electrically just like the P11, combined the two would be an idea.
    The barrel pack/magazine of the p11 is huge for 5 rounds, and you can't really get more than 5 in for the underwater version, but the same size could hold maybe as many as 30 9x19 equivalent rounds for air or vacuum use. With an updated fire control it could fire the barrels individually, meaning that it could load multiple ammo types, if its a primary weapon it can be made larger and hold more ammo...

    Aaaand we just invented the multi rifle...
     
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  15. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    I thought of them more like the guns from Judge Dredd. Really high tech projectiles. Some sort of Nano Stuff maybe.
     
  16. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    The lawgiver has a stock of warheads that get stuck on the standard ammo for some types and some of the ammo is specialty that can't be made that way, I think the infinity multi weapons work similar to that, as evidenced by the secondary magazines...
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, but they used to be KO'd by EM weapons. Could be electronic ignition (like the Abrams main gun).
     
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  18. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    If they are caseles than this is the only way.
     
  19. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    What if the Pano guns are all just ridiculously powerful airsoft guns? That would explain the weird backward magazines and ammo bottles...
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
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