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We are cheap rotten scoundrels, but we could be cheaper

Discussion in 'Druze Bayram Security' started by Errhile, Jan 16, 2023.

  1. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I really see the NA2 factions (less JSA) as a means of transitioning between factions. You play Haqq and want to start collecting Yu Jing? Well why don't you take a look at Dahshat while you expand your collection?

    And while I happen to agree about the table top condition of the Druze army right now, I have to disagree on the idea that there is little to no fluff argument to support the Druze as a faction of disparate human mercenaries... I mean, they're the enforcer division of an organized crime syndicate... They're gonna pressgang civilians and those who are particularly vulnerable into "helping" their cause. This doesn't mean you're getting the best & brightest, this means you're getting the trucker with gambling debts or the bounty hunter with a stim addiction.j

    One thing about Druze - more than 25% of their roster is Characters - 9 of 32 unit types are named characters
     
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  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I really like this concept, and I'm impressed how cheap you did get it. I wonder if it could be interesting comparison with other factions. my gut feeling is 177 points might actually be on the high end for 15 models of largely chaff.

    An example from vanilla Yu Jing (which is admittedly not the fairest comparison but I'm just familiar with them).

    Yu Jing Core
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]6
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / CC Weapon, Pistol. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    HÙNDÙN (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    KRAKOT RENEGADE Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (0 | 14)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
    PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    MOTORIZED BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Chain-colt(+1B) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9)

    3.5 SWC | 148 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Regarding Druze in general, I like that it is a pretty rag tag collection of mercenary type troops, and I have converted some troops to look more like druze to bring a more unified look. My one beef is the sheer number of named characters, combined with a lack of basic roles not filled by a generic troop.
    Keeping pure core benefits and the addition of yuan yuan have made the army serviceable, and yuan yuan add some much needed *fun* to the list.

    Pulling in an HI from another army (I reckon S5 and the haqq ones might be the best bets) and another midfield specialist (so fiddler isn't such an auto-include) would go a long way to round out the army I think without adding too much functionality.
    If I was to go into wishlist territory, I think the druze and brawler profiles could do with a balance pass and potentially some cost reduction (how TF is a brawler 5 points more than a fusilier???).
     
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  3. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    My Pick for a s5 HI Would bei the al faseed. They are discribed as mercs and horrible people, are Veterans and Great models that share the general haqq Design with the druze. The faseed are already aviable in ikari so trat might be an argument against them. I would like them or a New druze HI with similar armorto be added to druze to get a big, beefy, trooper other than scarface.
     
  4. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Well, I think the Druze don't have access to what many other armies would consider order monkeys / cheerleaders - Regular models at ~10pts apiece with really high AVA. Your basic Zhanshi, Fusiliers, Line Kazaks, Ghulams etc. Bounty Hunters at 12pts would be close, but they are AVA 2...


    How is a Fusilier cheaper? Well, he has worse CC, worse PH, worse ARM, no BTS, and carries a cheaper weapon combination. All true according to CB points formula.

    Though this tells us nothing about why CB considered the Brawlers should be bulidt with all those extras that pump theri cost up by 50% compared to a Fusilier. My guess is - they were never intended to be bread and butter / cheerleader troops for mercenary companies - rather a source of otherwise-lacking specialists (hence the Doc and Engineer, who are a rare sight in "cheerleader" troops, as well as Hacker, and support weapons like MSV L2-ed Multisniper, and a HRL - notably there's no squad automatic, be it HMG or Spitfire...).

    Which again, to me, seems odd.
    • JSA have AVA Total Keisotsu (but OK, they are NA2, yet not a merc force) at ~9pts apiece
    • Ikari have AVA 5 Keisotsu at ~9pts apiece
    • StarCo had AVA Total Alguaciles at ~10pts apiece
    • SpiralCorps are... weird. I can't identify typical cheerleaders there, though some combination of Chaksa and Kaauri might be coming close.
    • ForCo gets it tough, but AVA Total Securitate at 13 pts are there. Kinda elitist for a chaff unit (still, a Veteran cheerleader unit opens a possibility of using a very aggressive Lt, and cushioning the LoL), but can be cheapened with up to 3 CSU in a fireteam (at 11pts)
    • Dahshat has AVA 6 Ghulam at 11pts. Gets the job done.
    • White Company has AVA Total Fusliers, at 10pts.
     
    #24 Errhile, Jan 31, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you're right on that. Brawlers were originally link fillers in druze and ikari with low Ava or link restrictions. Things like sticking an msv2 in a link or towing an engineer up the board efficiently in a haris for objectives was the original script.
    Having a full squad of them is pricey and doesn't buy much on-table performance compared to cheaper options in like fusiliers and securitate
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    yeah no doubt brawlers' role in druze has changed a fair bit. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be way happier if druze came down in points and brawlers stayed the same.
    But I do find Druze struggle against modern factions, and it largely comes down to paying more for less. Brawlers seem to the easiest example to point to, as most of their stat buffs don't always cost 1 point a piece and I'm pretty sure rifle+lsg is priced the same as combi so theres even an extra point thrown on top.
     
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    With so many additions and fireteam changes, I think the entire sectorial profile and how it plays has changed.
     
  8. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    And I believe it should be revisited and re-written.
    I mean, I get it - it was originally intended for the Outrage Mission Pack, in which it was facing the Dolly Dagger crew in a contianed set of scenarios. A little game on its own, purely for funsies - that didn't had to be well balanced.

    But then they turned up into the wider game as the first NA2 sectorial. And they bore soem desing problems from the teething era of the NA2 concept. Adding a merc (like Diggers, or a slew of characters) here or there doesn't really fix things if the basic concept is off-center. And by now, I think it is.

    It wouldn't harm to have the Druze cheaper, but they aren't bad either. They are sollid medium infantry, with decent stats and weapons.
    The problem with them, IMO, is they don't really warrant fielding large fireteams of Druze.

    The only thing I'd drop from them is the Veteran skill. It is expensive, I guess, and not that effecive on a troop that is likely to face heavy attrition by the moment you get into LoL.

    Edit: in an afterhought, I have compared Druze to Sekban and Kaplan (two other MI in the QK roster I think competing for the same niche. I've left the Djanbazan out, as they bring some very different things to the table: Regeneration and MSV L2).

    In terms of basic statlines, they're all similar, and cost 23-24 points.
    • CC - neither troop is stellar in CC, with raw CC between 15 and 17.
    • Sekban are the best shot (with BS 13), though Druze, with X-Visors, easily match them over extended ranges.
    • ARM / BTS are the same for Druze and Sekban, the Kaplan trade in a point of ARM for 3 points of BTS.
    • All other stats are comparable (with Sekban acing in WIP due to Haqq-default 14)
    In terms of skills & equipment:
    • Druze bring Veteran, BS Attack +1 Dam & X-visors.
    • Sekban bring Terrain: Zero-G, 360--Visor, & NCO.
    • Kaplan bring Courage, Immunity: Shock & Mimetism -6
    Now, I have no qualms about fielding full fireteams of Sekban or Kaplan, neither now, nor in the past. They are serious investments, but they generally do deliver.

    I'm pretty sure Rifle + LSG is 1 point more than a Combi. Coming from comparing Ghulam vs. Alguaciles and Fusiliers.

    I can't comment on how they do agaisnt modern factions (my meta is too small to form a valid opinion), but I ca say they are my least favorite of the 7 factions I play.
     
    #28 Errhile, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I don't really disagree here. As I said, its mostly a bit of feeling/wishlist that I would field druze more and *feel* less bad about it if they were a touch cheaper.
    I think this largely a factor of some skills being more synergistic or providing more value in the current meta than the cost would represent.
    For Sekban the BS13 and NCO lending itself well to pointmen in a link. For Kaplan, mimetism does a lot of heavy lifting for its 1pt pricetag.

    Druze bring a lot of kit, but most of it being very situational, which, when there is only 1 or 2 of these troops the liklihood of that situation appearing is pretty low.
    Your example of veteran is relatively expensive, but not bringing a lot for this unit is really emblematic of that. I really like veteran on druze from a thematic and niche little bonus. But would give it up to trim 2 points off a profile. And really a classic case of flat pricing of skills being less ideal but logistically I understand why its still used.

    Ghulam suffer the same as zhanshi of I think being rounded up where fusi and alguaciles rounded down, rather than their profile justifying an extra point.
    If you look at old bashibazouk or CSU, rifle+LSG is identical in cost to combi profiles, or cost differences come from other kit.
    in N4 it probably should cost more as the superior loadout for cheap units, but I haven't seen any evidence of their being an actual change to the weapon costs to this degree.

    Brawlers just pay some extra tax, probably rounding, and maybe multiple instances of rounding for extra punishment.
     
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would no object to Druze been cheaper, but their kit makes them feel to be about right points wise, maybe they need more haris in the sectorial?
     
  11. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Well, it would certainly be appreciated if the Druze were cheaper themselves. But I believe that's not where the crux of the problem lies.
    After all, as I wrote, in QK there are two other similar-ish MI with comparable cost, and I see no problem fielding them as a full core. With Druze, I really don't see the point for that.

    Stat-wise, they are all comparable.
    Skill-wise,
    • X-visor is somewhat situational, generally preferring long-range engagements. However, I must point out that in my experience, you rarely do engage with rifles over long distances. In active turn, this is doen with apprpriately long ranged support weapon - be it HMG, Spitfire, Marksman Rifle, Sniper Rifle or HRL. In reactive turn, well, you negate a bit of the engative mod if you are getting engaged from outside of your optimal range. Sure, it was the Druze trick since day one, so perhaps it should be there.
    • Veteran, well, depends on how much does it cost. I get that it is - fluff-wise - a mark of really excellent troops, but mechanically, it is far more advanageous if kept on troops that aren't going to be in the harm's way, I think. Because this way you have a better chance of still having them around when the situation comes to make the skill actually useful (LoL). So, I just hope it is fairly inexpensive. Personally, I'd make the Druze have Courage instead.
    • BS Damage +1 is a nice thing, but only a tiebreaker. If the opponent fails their ARM / BTS save by a mile, or succeeds it by a mile, it does not matter. If they would barely made it without this skill, well, that makes for a difference. But that's in, if I get thhe maths right, in exactly 5% of saving rolls. So I just hope it is cheap.
    Comparing the loadouts is an another thing.


    Hmmm.


    I have a feeling the problem is less about the Druze themselves, and more about the sectorial environment they live in. What the Druze do well, is fighting from a long distance. X-visored HMG, Sniper, Marksman Rifle. Hacking / Hacker support (decent Hacker and Killer Hacker one can't Isolate, due to Veteran. X-visored, fully linked Pitchers).
    The Sekban and Kaplan do have HRLs for long-ranged engagements, but they really want to get up close, with Spitfires, combis, shotguns and so on. Their speciasits aren't hackers, but Doctors (and Engineers or Specialist Operatives). The Druze have no real incentive to get up close - Viral Pistols make do in a pinch, but that's not something one would usually choose to fight their war with.
    If you sit in the back, castle up, generate Orders and pull Hacking shenanigans with your Druze Core, you need a different set of tools to work theri way upfield - and achieve your Objectives. Yes, the Druze have a good choice of skirmishers and REMs who can be used for that - but in that case, I feel that fielding a Core worth ~140pts is kinda waste of points.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]5
    DRUZE (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    DRUZE (Paramedic) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt ( | MediKit) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    DRUZE (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Pitcher, D-Charges ( ) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30)
    DRUZE Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
    DRUZE (Mimetism [-3]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
    3.5 SWC | 142 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    This is a theory I came up with a long time ago regarding my Haqq armies, but generally: if your defensive fireteam needs to be pressed itno offensive action, it usually means things already went wrong. And you're going to be short on Orders. And the Druze don't, really, make for a good offensive fireteam.

    I don't see a good offensive fireteam in the DBS roster.

    I guess I'll have to try playing a

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    BRAWLER (Lieutenant) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    BRAWLER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
    DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
    2 SWC | 87 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    and build a DBS list's offensive potential around it.

    But this excludes the Druze themselves again.
     
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    DRUZE (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    DRUZE Shock Marksman Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    DRUZE Shock Marksman Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    DRUZE (Mimetism [-3]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
    DRUZE (Paramedic) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt ( | MediKit) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    1.5 SWC | 135 Points

    This is the usual core I run and the Haris looks usually like this.

    DRUZE Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
    DRUZE Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    DRUZE (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Pitcher, D-Charges ( ) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)

    1.5 SWC | 84 Points

    I do not think they are the cheapest or the best optimized, but I do like the Druze been Druze.
     
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  13. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Well, with a pure Druze fireteam, we ain't talkin' cheap anyway ;)

    This looks like a definitely defensive Core. Something that castles up and tries to pick targets off from a distance. Well-supplied to cover a distance with stacked AROs, but it is still 135pts hanging in the rear. And kinda one-trick-pony in my personal opinion.

    The Haris could be useful for an offensive role, though I'd consider swapping the Panzerfaust for a Paramedic. Someone to pick up othe teammembers, and a second Specialist moving upfield. I'll have to try that one sometime. Nb. I'd be tempted to substitute the third team member with Taowu. Anyone trying to rush the Haris with a CC specialsit would be in for a very rude surprise.
     
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  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Nice suggestions, Druze are a faction I love to play, but rarely play. I could mix up the core and bring in cheaper troops, I feel Druze could benefit with two Haris and a Core, I wonder if I should experiment with Duos more.
     
  15. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    @Errhile I'm curious to hear more about how you use a Sekban or KTS link, I've pretty much been defaulting to Djan as the base of my Core link in QK with an Azra'il taking the Haris.

    As for Druze themselves, I think that in this sectorial they really want to be a defensive link, but really you only need 1 for the pitcher and every other role can be done better by another unit. They aren't good gunfighters, they aren't real durable, they don't pack a huge punch, they don't move fast, etc. The pile of weapons bloats their costs (We have combi rifles that function just fine at 0-8, then chain colts, then viral pistols...) with skills and gear to further push those points values up. In reality, where you aren't taking advantage of much of that gear/skill, and without equipment/skills that changes the way your opponent has to play in their active (MSV2, Marksmanship, Smoke, etc) they apply very little actual pressure for their points cost. A Brawler wouldn't feel much different in many cases.

    Druze themselves should be 2-3 points less than they are, and the sectorial SHOULD have more tools that are themed to them. The big issue is they thematically overlap with QK a lot, and making them not the same would be challenging. Less non-Druze named characters, more merc units. I'm getting real tired of having sectorials crutch on some named A! character. It's like taking a reality TV/sports persona on your black ops mission. I get the Yuan Yuan, you can silence them afterwards, but I think people will notice if Fiddler or Taowu go missing.

    Let's get a generic Ramhorn TAG added in, maybe an Al Fasid, hell, I can see the Druze loving Sunduqbuts for the amount of warcrimes that one box commits.

    As an aside, add Hortlaks to QK please and give them back their second Haris....
     
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  16. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Given the only purpose of a Duo I can see is hauling a close-in combatant or a secialist behind a long-ranged combatant upfield, I can't see much point in Duos in DBS beyond:
    1. TAG with someone behind it (Scarface & Cordelia, or Scarface/Anaconda & Wolfgang Amadeus / Valerya). Note: Scarface & Wolfgang didn't worked up my last Druze game (Scarface got shot up by Achilles, Wolfgang spent the entire game doing nothing, Achilles got chopped up by AROing Saito Togan, a defensively-deployed Druze Core managed to do the heavy lifting and win the day - with a serious contribution of a Yuan Yuan BSG, dropped into enemy rear)
    2. Bulleteer with a Motorized Bounty Hunter in tow, and hope the Bounty Hunter Booty brings something useful...
    Twin Haris is not something Druze can do now, so I don't take it into an account. However: two Harises and a Core make for 11 models. Likely, this means at least one, defensive, Core in #2 Group. Interesting idea.

    Can't say I use them much. With 7 armies to play these days, and my meta tanking hard due to pandemic and RL issues, my actual N4 games are too few and far between.
    I have used a Sekban Core recently vs. Morats (had HRL, Spitfire, Doc, BSG and a rifleman). Still trying to figure how the Monkeys tick. I had little luck on the dice, and had to spend my entire turn trying to get rid of a Bultrak TAG in cover (couldn't afford to let it loose), then got hit by a Morat AD (the exploding one, what-is-its-name...) landing on top of my Sekban and promptly killing all of them (never had to deal with this, didn't knew how to respond. Took me a while before I came to a conclusion: the right answer, if anyone tries that, is "dodge into CC". If you succeed, you have avoided the Explode landing, and since the Morat in question isn't a CC ace, a couple of your relatively competent models have a sensible chance of winning the resulting close combat).

    I haven't had a chance to field Kaplan recently.

    I see you're coming to the same conclusion, as me...

    Isn't that a common problem associated to many MIs?
    Though, true, being thematically Druze-centric, DBS suffers hard from that.

    So, we are back to square one: DBS needs a revisit and rewrite...
     
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  17. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    More or less. Seems to be about the way my primary factions are sitting these days. At least Druze are better than QK...
     
  18. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    It also protects from Isolated - Druze Hackers like that most.
     
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  19. Ariwch

    Ariwch Tournament benthotic lurker

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    A faction without strong hitters at all, ORLY?
     
  20. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what your comment is supposed to insinuate. That QK doesn't have good hitters, or that DBS doesn't. I don't think it's necessarily true for either, but both are centered around using expensive MI.
     
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