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Was OSS released early just so TAk can get a punching doll?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by theradrussian, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    A handful of orders (4 or 5 at the absolute most. More like 3 or 4 to cap the majority of anything that is cared about)

    Is diddly squat to lists running 14 to 16 orders.

    I can hit 15 orders in a squalo list that will pluck that camo in 3 or 4 and then spend 9 to 10 obliterating anything it wants with disposable DTWs and a hgl.

    A none tag list is probably caring even less about the number of orders it takes. If it leaves ypu open and exposed to death like that.

    You wont have 14 orders when its said and done if you get hit by that
     
  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I'll call back to this:

    If you can lost an Asura under conditions favorable to her and against inferior opponents, what makes you think enemy can easily go through our defence while having inferior BS? Yadu HRL in Haris (which is one of my first choices when I construct OSS Haris team) - or even unlinked Asura in good range - can force enemy camo units to lose so many orders to fight their way through to make the whole attempt an exercise in futility. It doesn't matter if the enemy has 14 orders, if he needs to use 4-5 of them to deal with a single trooper. And in properly constructed layered defense there will be more than one ARO to deal with, you know that. OSS can play that game as well, it's just based on quality, while TAK defence bases on quantity.
     
  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Because I recognise that the time I lost Asura was statistically less probably occurrence. Lower BS is not all. If they have access to ways of putting negative modifiers (something they have on Yadu) without taking negative modifiers back, it means it's easier for them.
    While it can happen, Enemy Camo can walk through that linked Yadu HRL and get into their good range, Yadus 0 range, and engage from there.
    And this is not unique to Yadus, but Yadu HRL costs 35/2 plus the rest of the link.
    Now this problem is not unique to Yadus, but there is a reason you don't see many mid-price ARO fireteams. You either go cheap, or you go troops extra suited to this roles.
    As we agreed many times over, Infinity favours quantity over quality. Sure, OS can play some of this game, but our troops cost more, and if you're taking Camo troops you run out of points quickly.

    Having more troops also means you can more easily choose your battles, simply due to spread of those troops across the field.
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I don't remember agreeing to this. It was true in N2 and for some time between N3 and HSN3, but by now the power level is similar, maybe with a slight edge for the quantity approach - it simply makes mistakes or bad rolls less punishing, but is worse at really playing the odds.

    Yes, Camo unit can bypass Yadu's good range and choose its battle, but this would mean that 1) it's still in Camo, where it very well might not be if I had the opportunity to use my Sensor/Sniffer net, and 2) that I don't have a different unit covering the approach for just that very reason. Mk.5, for example. Sure, come closer to take advantage of Yadu's 0 range. Now you're in range of my SMG/Nanopulser. Oh yes, you can kill Mk.5 first. How many orders did you use to not deprive me of a single order of my own? Probably around 2. How many orders did you use to maneuver? How many do you have left to deal with my other troops? By the way, what weapons are your troops carrying? because the best you can do is T2/AP Marksman Rifle on Strelok (BS 11 btw), and if we're talking about Yadu HRL then you don't want to advance too much forward, either. Best case, 42% chance of taking that Yadu down. Less - and with more risk - if you're out of camo. Not a very good odds, chances are that you'll have to use more orders to fight through.
     
  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Sorry, I was under the impression you agreed on it. But if we disagree at something like this, I don't think we're gonna end up agreeing on anything.
    My position is that quality has a chance now, but odds are noticeably in favour of quantity.
    So 42 vs 22 is "good" for Mk.V vs Scout, but 42 vs 15 is "meh" for Strelok?

    Also, you have one Mk.V and removing it, sure, will take a few Orders that is not Order from you, but it is a trooper you don't get anymore. Especially considering some of Alephs Orders like Netrods do precisely 0 to help you defend against anything, it is still an important hit for future turns.

    Frankly, speaking TAK specifically, I'd use linked Vet Kazak AP HMG outside good range (for both) for 70%/35% vs 9%/5%. But again, it'll depend a lot on board layout and positioning.
     
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  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    No, it nicely compares worst case for Mk.V with best case for Strelok ;)
     
  7. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    ?!!?! How is it worst case for Mk.V? :-O What would be best case then for Mk.V? What do you expect Mk.V to be engaging in midfield, Stunned Fusiliers?

    Strelok has Camo to get into its good range, which is also not point blank which also means more options on approach (simply due to size of circle cutout that is 20cm away from Yadu but closer than 40cm).
     
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Just to further the "sensor" conversation

    The following list (one that I and others im aware of have run, that does win tournaments and is terrifying), cares almost nothing to spend the second group to do nothing but set up a sensor kill net in its turn. Even if your camo is dropping out to ARO against the fugazis you leave the PanO list with the option to try and survive, or sacraficially drop the sensor anyway, only now your Camo troop is out in the open, able to be satlocked, spec fired, burned or just obliterated by superior firepower.

    Lists like these just dont care how many camo tokens you have, because it is relatively trivial for tem to drop anything out of it, and then punish you for spamming camo as your main means of staying alive.


    [​IMG] Neoterran Capitaline Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] SQUALO (Armored Cav.) MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / AP Heavy Pistol. (2.5 | 95)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and it's worth remembering that a Sensorbot with two Flashbots is a pretty cheap investment, 32 pts roughly for most factions, and gives you three orders, great anti-camo capabilities, decent AROs (Flash Pulse and and mimetism can slow a lot of stuff right down) and a fast, mobile specialist.

    If you combine that with a TO Camo Combi-Rifle in the main group who is hidden deployed to be in the right position to quickly attack exposed enemy camo, you can easily hunt down those two Streloks and the Scout Minelayer/Scout FO your opponent has spend 100+pts on in one turn. Or warbands to run up and frag them, etc.
     
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  10. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    Also all those 3 models should be in each list anyway...
    Because cheap iritating aro/orders and fast specialist with utility.
    Repeater network for DZ is free bonus;P
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    exactly, I dont even look at it as a "anti camo tax"

    Because B2 Mimetism flashes are fantastic AROs, and cheap order generators
     
  12. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that you completely ignored the fact that the Spetz has a significant gunfighting advantage against pretty much everything that isn't a linked visor. Thanks!

    NWI is good, since you get one "get out of crit-jail free" card, but Camo makes a model objectively more durable since the opponent has to spend a whole order on discover to be able to do ANYTHING to you. You also effectively get an 8 inch cautious movement, which is SO GOOD.

    Yes, there are things that don't die to chain rifles in OSS, but TAK has 6 profiles that can eat a chain rifle failure and keep going. If you think about it: most of OSS stuff is 1 wound and will die to a chain rifle. Dakini Link team is a bargain, but a good player should definitely be able to get rid of it since its volnerable to hacking, dodging, can't go prone, and can't cautious move. Lacking MSV2 and MSV3 is only a problem if you don't have templates... and there's like a thousand great template platforms in TAK.

    How do you say the asura is a hard counter to Camo spam? You still have to spend an order discovering the Camo, so the Camo spam is still double orders to remove... and if there is more than 3 Camo tokens, you're far more efficient using the sniffer+sensor trick to discover the markers and save orders. And that's only if you're opponent is a mouth breather who puts his Camo tokens in view from the enemy half of the table.

    TO Camo is good, because your opponent doesn't know that it's there. TAK has enough "false" Camo tokens and "cheap" Camo tokens that you still play the shell game "well enough". You don't get the "hah you didn't see my sniper over there, so I get ONE ARO against you!" moments... but I've found most good players can absorb surprises with redundancy, and TAK can provide much more redundancy in the list than OSS can. You can go all in on like 3 TO snipers and really fuck with your opponent, but again, that's something you can do just as well in vanilla, which has smoke so you have an easier time pushing buttons (AKA winning).

    Posthumans are definitely undercosted. There isn't an AVA boost to them over Vanilla, which has smoke.

    The Dakini link is very powerful and cost effective, but has all the usual limitations of Links exasperated by the fact that they can't cautious move or go prone.


    OSS seems to have lots of weaknesses that vanilla ALEPH doesn't have: shitty CC, no smoke, no war bands. Its like you're choosing to play PanO. Compare this to TAK which gets increased AVA on all the neat things vanilla brings, but all the weaknesses you mentioned are ones shared with Vanilla.
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! Though they are very good vs Camo, they also provide great DZ protection and ARO duty, and cheap orders as you say.

    And when facing camo spam but going second, I always try to deploy my Flashpulse bots so they are covering key access lanes to objectives on my side of the board, and my own troops in their DZ. Having Mimetism and being cheap I can happily declare a Discover ARO on any camo marker I see moving around, and if they reveal to shoot me, nbd. After all, most camo markers are low BS and lacking MSV. They're likely to be hitting on 8s at best, good chance they'll just land one hit and I'll soak it. And if not, it's 8pts, it's soaked an enemy order and got that camo marker revealed. Extra bonus if I have any other AROs on the same area, who can then kill the foolish skirmisher.

    (The only thing I've never really been sure on is whether if you see a Camo marker with two guys and declare a Discover with one, and Delay your ARO with the other, and the Camo marker moves again, whether if you succeed with the Discover the guy who Delayed can now declare an ARO. I don't think so, because the rules say that unless the Second Skill reveals the Camo Marker, you lose your right to an ARO. But then if you're Discovered you count as Discovered through the whole Order. It would be nice if you could shoot though. I think that'd make a little more sense as a rules mechanic and probably make people feel a little less at a disadvantage when facing Camo troops.)
     
  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Most stuff in OSS is not 1 Wound and dies to a chain rifle. Devas. Asuras. Posthumans. Dasyus. Yadus. Rudras. I could go on. Which hey is better than most factions in fact, given that they have LI, MI, HI, REMs and Skirmishers that can soak a wound and keep going. Camo is not objectively better than NWI and the fact that you think it is displays why you're having a mental block over this. Camo is good, and I use it all the time. It is not the be all and end all. If you play intelligently and keep your cool, you will find that under most camo markers are basically glorified line troopers that cost twice as much.

    The Dakini link is vulnerable to hacking... which TAK doesn't get so it can't use that definite weakness the team has. They can't dodge but they do have SSL2, Mimetism and BS 13 B2 AROs with various heavy weapon options in the link, something that TAK will struggle to deal with as they don't have a lot that can beat that in a straight fight. They have range, and you have to get the templates there, which you protect yourself from with intelligent deployment.

    You have to declare a short skill, not a full order, to discover with an Asura, and that it is auto-pass means that it is the "closest thing to a hard counter" as it basically means that the camo marker will definitely be revealed and definitely be shot in the face. There isn't much that can withstand an Asura Spitfire which sits under a Camo Marker in any army and definitely not in TAK (whose Camo markers are all single-wound etc). Your opponent will obviously hide their Camo Markers which is why you advance with your Asura and spend orders moving into position, discovering, and shooting. And yes you might want to use Sensor and Sniffers too, but fortunately, you can and indeed they work well with the Asura because they're cheap orders and she is expensive!

    TAK does have multiple fake Camo markers and that is very strong, but you're only revealing your hidden TO Camo markers to shoot those camo markers when they reveal. Spetz goes "aha" and surprise shots the Dakini MSR from a rooftop across the board. Proxy goes "aha yourself" and AROs from another corner with her MSR. Even if the Spetz puts all 4 shots into the Dakini (B 4 on 12s vs B 2 on 13s is not suuuuuper great odds either tbh) he's got a 50% chance of taking a DA round to the face and probably dying. Your opponent may lose a Spetz to knock a Dakini unconscious, fortunately that WIP 15 Proxy Engineer is right there to fix it! If you're going first? You advance your Asura and kill the Spetz. Or don't, because you don't have the range, so you just reveal it instead, take a single wound to the Asura, and the linked Dakini kills him in her place. Gunfights are not in isolation. It is list vs list not dude vs dude, and your job is to make each encounter favour you through use of careful positioning, range, weapon selection and ARO declaration.

    OS doesn't need smoke, and doesn't need warbands, and doesn't need loads of CC. You just need to play it intelligently and actually pay attention to how you deploy, what AROs you are going to generate, etc. And yes, going 2nd against a Camo heavy TAK force that is intelligently played and using it's advantages well is hard. But the part that's hard there is "intelligently played and using it's advantages well" because that is what the game is about, and that should be difficult, just like how facing a well played OS force is difficult. Struggling against that list? Practise. Play games. Plan out tactics. Adapt your forces.

    As we used to say around here, it ain't your list, it's you.
     
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  15. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Wow. Just wow. "Git gud, pleb" doesn't seem like a particularly nice way to approach a guy.

    Also, if you actually tried using Asura against a Camo spam list, you'd know that autodiscover is a great way to spend your Order pool running around autodiscovering Mines and Ambush camo. And when you finally get that stupid lil' Foxtrot, he'll just plop a mine in your face as a parting gift. Seriously, does everyone in your meta just let you see all their Camo from your DZ?

    At least the Sniffer-Sensor guys have something that's theoretically Order efficient, even if I don't think it's truly useful against the type of Camo spam list Ariadna or TAK can deploy.
     
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I have. I've also played against them and watched games with them. And no, they don't, obviously. But MOV MOV from DZ. MOV to get lof on marker, they don't ARO, Discover. Shoot, MOV. Dead. MOV, they don't ARO, Discover. Shoot, MOV. Dead. That's five orders, two can be LT orders, two dead midfield camo markers. Oh they put down a mine? Even if I'm in range, okay, I bounce it because ARM 5 more than half the time! Let's say they're playing shallower, throw another MOV order in. Six orders, two of them LT orders, midfield secured and skirmishers cleared out. Still got most of the first turn left to play!

    And as I said, sensor sniffer works too! You can bring both into a list and they compliment each other.

    This is not just theory. I've done this. I've done it with troops that don't have MSV3, 2W, NWI and ARM 5 with two LT orders and I could certainly do it with troops that do. These tactics are viable and they work.

    It's not "git gud, pleb," those are your words not mine. It's exactly what it says, if you're not finding victory with your current tactics, practice, experiment with new tactics, look at other options. When did that stop being encouraged in this community?
     
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  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Re-read you post, especially the segment I quoted. That was not encouragement, that was the equivalent of what I summed it as.

    First of all, 2 midfield skirmishers are not camo spam. Second of all, is nothing covering them? Or at least, appearing to cover them? And they're so close you can engage them so easily one after the other but cannot lend support? Do they do nothing in return?

    These tactics work in some cases, yes. I am not denying that. However, you are requiring your opponent to push out Camo skirmishes in the midfield without any kind of support.
     
  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Who said that was all of the camo markers? If there are more, rinse and repeat. And if they're covering each other great, I'm an Asura, I can split my Burst and get multiple kills, even more order efficient! Generally I'll try to methodically work through one at a time unless I'm under severe order pressure mind.

    If there is other stuff covering them, like a linked Vet Kazak... Then great! That's an exposed trooper I can deal with using my Dakini link. Perhaps a Spetz HMG on a building? Fine by me, ARO to shoot me with a HMG. At worst, you'll do a wound. Maybe I'll just put my Burst into him mind, clear that out instead and let a Scout shoot me, less likely to do anything after all.

    These troops only do anything once they're revealed, and once revealed, they're hilariously vulnerable to overwhelming fire superiority from my side of the board. If they're in overwatch position I can clean them out at range, if not I'll avoid LoF and focus on the midfield.

    Of course, this is not a guaranteed win. If my opponent plays well, deploys and AROs intelligently, and remains cool under pressure, then I might struggle and get beaten. But not because of the advantage they have as a TAK player, but rather the tactical advantage that comes from their superior skill as a player.
     
  19. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    All of this depends on the OS player having the first turn. To have a fighting chance.
     
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  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm almost certain the answer, as you surmised, is 'no', but I would argue that it's just as much to do with the fact that you cannot get an ARO after rolls and effects have happened (like succeeding on your discover). That's why you can't dodge an exploding Kuang Shi if they explode because they took a wound.
     
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