Neither did this thread. It's another one in the long series of "I think faction/sectorial/unit X is too weak, discuss". Some of them have some merit, some have none, this one is one of the latter.
You mean, barring the fact that there is a list in the OP of stuff that makes no sense/can only be described as a beta package? Or is CB a sacred cow beyond critique? I personally view them as human beings, and no more above criticism than me. The fact that your opinion is it has no merit is nice, so now you have made your voice known. If you do not want to discuss, then dont post?
As @Nemo No Name has shown, dear @Stiopa, your opinion is only that. Considering my posts are within the forum rules and rules for proper discourse, I don't see what the issue you have with people using a forum to voice opinions, thoughts, and suggestion based on evident, objectively true facts is. I don't get the "CB is beyond critique gang" . I really don't"
Nice strawman you've got there, given that I see no one arguing that CB is beyond critique. This is especially silly, given that I've mentioned CB making mishaps in my very first response in this thread. You've put forward a radical opinion, so you shouldn't be surprised some people will argue with it, up to and including knocking their forehead. And all our opinions - yours, mine, etc - are just opinions. I have nothing against the presence of those threads, I just find a lot of them silly, especially when someone uses so strong and definite wording as you did. "Punching bag", really? I am interested in discussing OSS power level, but this is grasping at straws. Like I've said, both NCO and Sucker Punch issues look like typical CB mishaps. Neither constitutes big enough tax, to affect their unit's usefulness in any way. And these are pretty much the only arguments for the premise of this thread. And I strongly disagree with that, but it's to be expected given that we disagree when it comes to Yadu, for example ;)
@Stiopa how is it a strawman when you come and try to jump in on another comment that effectively imply this convoy should not be taking place? No need to comment further if you don't want to contribute to the discussion :) Could you be trying to use the fallacy fallacy? Or strawmanning my point so you can accuse me of a strawman? Some OSS level trickery, I dare say :P
We could disagree on values of some units while agree on overall power levels of sectorials. Not all units raise power levels of whole factions, since they are not taken always, or even as one of main alternative options.
Still better than your last post. You know I'm talking about "CB is beyond critique gang" strawman. You want people contributing to this thread? Put together some proper arguments to discuss. That is true, but if your opinion is that OSS is weaker than TAK, then we'll disagree on that as well. Both are easily top tier. TAK has more Camo and superior midfield presence. OSS is much more durable and mobile.
Yeah, OS has more options of high-durability troops (NWI, multiwound). However, that durability comes at premium prices (with the sole exception of Posthumans, which basically make OS competitive even more than vanilla Aleph), so there will actually be limited number of such troops. Furthermore, this durability can often be deceptive. As for mobility, I strongly disagree. Sure, 6-4 Dakinis and Rudra are nice, but we have one Climbing Plus option, no Super Jump, and more importantly: less marker states (both options but also actually on table due to high price) and absolutely no Smoke. TAK by far wins the mobility aspect here. Note that for mobility, it matters less if marker is Camo or TO Camo, since neither can be shot without first discovering. OS has really good Hacking (which can be nice in some cases and useless against others, like say TAK) and has some access to high-tech skills. However, in my opinion OS is the best example of how badly some skills, weapons, and combinations are priced in Infinity. OS is full of overpriced items (ex. MULTI Rifles, MSV3, high WIP) and effectively-overpriced-combinations (MULTI Sniper + Infiltration, high overall stats). However, due to way Infinity is structured and priced, marker state, cheap Orders, and visibility mods are the best to have, period. TAK is almost textbook example of stacking these mods, on top of extremely multipurpose G:Sync units and the benefits of cheap infiltration. Not to mention that TAK has access to some of the best Fireteams in Infinity. One place where OS has clear lead over TAK is exceptional and multi-purpose specialists. NOTE: I don't think TAK is top of power-curve though. Vanilla Ariadna edges it out primarily due to access to Chasseurs, Foxtrots, and Volunteers. And Tohaa's Symbiomated Fireteams also carry a lot of weight.
NCO is secret for me. It is in new book. Same as Lt2 and stuff. OSS was released when book was ready. Beause printing and stuff takes time. Lt2 made it to wiki and public release. NCO not. But its as set in stone as Lt2. Secrets secrets, sucker punches on KHD;) Ah and btw - OS has 4 models with climbing plus, not 1;D Thats a lot!
Yyyy Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 DALETH Rebot Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17) RUDRA K1 Marksman Rifle, Mine Dispenser / Electric Pulse. (0 | 42) ZAYIN Rebot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenade / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) 1 SWC | 119 Points Open in Infinity Army Which actually just got better due to changes to AD in ITS10. Plus don't talk about it being overpriced when Proxy Mk2 exist.
Oh, yeah, I forgot about REMs *facepalm* My mistake. Still, while it helps a bit, doesn't really hold a candle to plethora of marker states and Smoke. How does that affect anything?! If Proxies didn't exist, vanilla Aleph and OS would be at the bottom of the competitive lists. So no, saying "but Posthuman" solves nothing.
This thread seems really negative guys. Can we talk a deep breath? One of things I like about the TAK Vs. OSS match up is OSS has some nice tools to help deal with with all the Camo Markers TAK can bring. A couple of pretty decent MSV 3 options (LT2 and Harris) An easily linkable MSV 2 Spitfire An easily linkable Sensor A solid MSV2 TAG. Mean while the average TAK camo marker is about 30pts. (29.25 FWIW) Add that into the somewhat more expensive Links and I feel like TAK is less aggravating to deal with than Vanilla in some ways.
Oh, yeah, I forgot completely about that! Not only that, we have AVA4 Harisable MSV3, and AVA2 MSV2 TAG. With all that, TAK has no chance whatsoever! ...
YMMV Nemo but in my experience so far but the LT2 and the Harris Asura are worth using. Would I rely on them every game? No but I haven't had major issues with them. Likewise in my experience the Marut is one of the better tags in the game. Though expensive. Again not an every game type of piece but generally solid. As for the pricing. Again in general the lists I've come up against tend to be ~12-14 units for TAK instead of 18-20 for Vanilla. At the end of the day man you're free to be as upset as you want, but think about who you're harming by working yourself up over it. CB, me, probably everyone else on these forums doesn't get hurt by you being frustrated. But you hurt yourself. Take care of yourself man, its not worth the aggravation its just a game :)
I used Asura Lt2 in every game so far. :D All but 1 with Hacker. I love it. But she's too expensive. Primarily (although not solely) because of that stupid MSV3 cost. It's 12-13 points for MSV3. That's a whole Lamedh over MSV2, for bonuses that are worth maybe a point. And while she's certainly useable, she is most definitively not really a big boon against Ariadna or TAK. She's nice, but T2 still wrecks her and advantage of Camo is that it cannot be attacked while in Marker state. And if you're discovering with Asura in reactive, you're losing that Asura. If you're not discovering, then MSV3 helps not. I completely agree it's one of the better TAGs. However, it is expensive, in an expensive faction. And OS does not have Smoke to help it even a little bit. TAK, with it's full link BS13 AP HMGs will eat it for lunch the moment it's active turn starts. And chances you'll be able to push up-field, with every Camo in DZ potentially hiding a Portable Autocannon or a Missile Launcher... Yeah, but that TAK comes with several force multiplication - G:Sync Antipode is a very useful tool, as is linked Vet Kazak AP HMG, with lots of Mines an I really dislike this argument. In one hand, sure, it's not worth it. But this game is one of my favourite hobbies, and I'd like to enjoy it properly - including having everything close in power level. Infinity is already pretty decent in that regard, but why not improve it when the changes don't see that big? Now, will CB read my comments and make the suggested changes? I really, really doubt it. But maybe, just maybe, we get another bone like the MULTI Rifle on Asura Hacker.
The asura forces specific placements, ignores camo bonuses just generally and should win a fair number of gun fights. That's not to say shes an autowin but a model that can guaranteed Discover + shoot, and that ignores Surprise shot & Camo penalties is a solid tool to have. Shes also got a good chance in the active turn vs. Veteran Kazaks in links which is unusual. Most TAGs things get eaten for lunch in the reactive turn, even that Veteran Kazak ;) The Autocannon (and I'm sticking to autocannon cause I feel like its a more popular choice than ML but both are basically the same) definitely hurt. But you'll usually only see one on the table. If you're at the point you're running the marut you're going to be running the gambit on losing it. Thats just part of running TAG lists IMO. Again I dont mean to say the Marut is some be all end all. But generally against a list that wants to spam camo, use smoke to maneuver and then run a link with a beefy HI to lead it. A unit with MSV2 and superior gun skills will be a reasonable match up. And I'd counter that OSS gets some very comparable and very useful tools. Mines, Mine Dispenser, Drop Bears. Holo 2 G:Synched Deva Bots + Kiran Bots MSV2 Spitfires in 5 man Links Assisted Fire HMGs in Mimetism 5 man Links Post Humans They're not the same but they're undeniably good :) In my experience, the game is pretty balanced. The less I worry about trying to min-max some list and the more I focus on playing with the tools i have the better I end up doing. Heavy lifting with the Anaconda or the Gorgos are definitely doable when you use them enough. Being doom and gloom about the game just makes me feel worse. But hey I'm not you, you're more than welcome to do what you like. I'd just encourage you to try and focus on constructively point out the oddities or the gaps.
She's got an okay chance. Spitfire Asura in good range and cover vs fully linked Vet Kazak AP HMG in good range and cover is 35% vs 25%. I don't see this as good odds, and these are realistically the best odds you'd get against any semi-competent opponent. You're missing my point. It's not about seeing it on the table. It's about possibility that any of those Ambush markers just might be actual PA/ML and you cannot ignore that possibility during your active turn. Not to mention all the PH15+ Engages that can tie up Marut if you get too close. Once reactive turn starts, forget it. If Marut is not in total cover, you might as well take it off the table unless you get really lucky and crit. To be clear, it's not all doom and gloom. If they show anything, Marut will blow it away in its Active turn. But if this is our best option for fighting Ariadna/TAK? I'm sorry, but OS is not in a good position. What Smoke? Yeah, try packing more than 2-3 of these things into single list. Honestly, it won't get you far. Assisted Fire HMG is only as good as its targets; with camo on the other side it's hard to even start shooting. ^^ Again, I'm not saying OS has no chance against TAK. But it is a disadvantageous matchup. Especially if you're making a generic list (for tournaments) and not a specialised anti-camo list. And I'm trying to be realistic here, and look at how fun games will be against good opponents. And against Camo spam lists, it just feels like uphill battle to just have a chance. This is a general problem, not an OS specific. But OS specific is that Ariadna and TAK manage to match strengths exactly against our weaknesses, take advantage of all the inefficiencies in the design of our sectorial, and sidestep most of our strengths (like Hacking). If you want a comparison, I consider OS (vanilla Aleph too) actually a very good matchup against typical Tohaa power lists. Those games are also not fun usually, but at least there I don't feel like all our advantages are ignored. I appreciate your attempts, but unfortunately I find your arguments mostly unconvincing. Some you have a point - for example, G:Sync Devabots are freaking awesome against Camo spam. Pity they only come with glorified Auxilia. At least in vanilla we had Scylla and Drakios... And no, Kiran Bots don't help. E/M ammo is singularly pathetic against Ariadna. I mean, sure, in ideal circumstances you'll Isolated half their army and it's gonna hurt, but realistically you'll maybe get a couple of Camo infiltrators and thats it. And here's the problem - they have so many Orders and cheap troopers that they won't notice it, not to mention that those troopers are still fully operational in ARO and can still use that one Order they get to spawn another mine or just reCamo. And Cybermines do absolutely nothin'.
I had a whole big post ready with bits and pieces about how I disagreed with everything. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that ends with us talking in circles. Let me put this to you. Your experience of the game and mine are very different right? Why is that? Honest question not trying to say anything. But Surely local metas have evolved or styles have adjusted etc. Right like there has to be some difference in experience with the game that explains these differences of opinion doesn't there? I'm leaving in the two below because I think they might actually be valuable. Irmandinhos, Dog Warriors, Dynamos and Johns? I think we got some wires crossed there. So the thing is. What makes the Kiran good here isn't that they are E/M Or that you're trying to isolate stuff. Its that they're really good against other stuff and still useful against camo spam. Opponent brings HI and other heavy stuff? Great Kiran can go to town. Opponent brings lots of camo, mines etc? Great the Kiran has a Direct Template weapon on a disposable platform. Walk those speedy little buggers up into mines, slam em around corners and suicide blast guys standing next to camo markers. Or just challenge a camo and see if you can get him to react. If not? great you've got an intuitive attacker in place. The Kiran are good in this match up pretty much specifically because they do other things real good and then tag along to the party in other situations.
Yes and no. Metas do have a lot of influence, but I will disagree this makes all the difference. My thesis is that it all depends which factions good players play in your meta. Furthermore, I've been lucky enough to experience some quite different metas across Europe, and while some things vary, other things stay the same. That's why I try to construct arguments around what a competent player would do with the tools army provides. Completely crossed. OS doesn't have a half-decent MSV Reactive piece, and its too easy to remove anything left to ARO a piece with Spetznaz or Vet Kazaks. During OSs Active turn, if you are relying on your opponent laying down Smoke where you can exploit Asura or Marut... Well, then it really doesn't matter what your opponent is playing. Why would they do that? Usually everyone in midfield will be camoed, your Kiranbot will trigger a mine and won't be able to shoot anything since it cannot target camo. And yeah, sure, it may survive and be a threat and whatnot, but honestly, They can be isolated and engaged in a way to prevent many or any casualties. And here's the rub. Yeah, it'll take a few Orders, but Ariadna and TAK has the Orders to do it. Maybe they even suffer an isolated guy to it. But probably not 2. And even if it's 2, honestly, they won't notice that much as those 2 are still active, just not contributing Orders nor ramboing.Which is fine, because Ariadna has backups of backups of backups of attach pieces.
