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Vostoks

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by MattB89, May 9, 2021.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I don't necessarily disagree. It's just interesting to look at different ways of looking at advantages and disadvantages. I don't always bring a HD+ to drop white noise for example, and I'm pretty good at screwing up the WIP roll multiple times when I need it. That albedo doesn't cost an order and is perfectly reliable are different advantages to the ones you highlight, but are some none the less.
     
    #21 Hachiman Taro, May 11, 2021
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
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  2. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    I just pinged you on the big discord where I posted all the numbers. I did a lot of things, like non marksmenship vs marksmenship.
     
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  3. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
    Warcor

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    I'll absolutely second @RobertShepherd and @Hachiman Taro's points about the Albedo RF. A lot of premier factions are attempting to lock down the board with nasty MSV AROs. Even in TJC, where White Noise is a low resource cost, Albedo is still more efficient. Getting a fast Red Fury with EVO buffs past the MSV ARO to chew up orders is strong enough that I have been using it in TJC.

    I have used the Mk12 FTO too, but very little at this point. The only game I took it in, it under performed, but what can you do when Datz are repeatedly making ARM saves?

    I do think the MK12 FTO has a lot of potential in a CK core or Harris, and maybe a HM harris if you plan on getting a Firewall.
     
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  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    with a 24" gun the firewall is more often than not necessary when pushing up the table without giving up the supportware, also the HM Tinbot is a relevant specialist (by this I mean a specialist that commonly gets bonuses to perform objectives and the ability to do classifieds) as opposed to just a mediocre spec op.
    It is also more durable and the mobility is more relevant with HM when compared to the CK (6-2 SJ is useful 4-4 SJ is worthless), also better weapons when you compare the load outs available. CK haris is great if you want a disposable missile to throw up the table and cause some damage but it isn't much good past that, the HM bring a lot of mutual support and versatility that allow it to perform better in other aspects, and you gain the ability to add in Percy if you need the smoke or CC capability and different ammo types.
     
  5. bohun

    bohun Member

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    [QUOTE="..........
    I do think the MK12 FTO has a lot of potential in a CK core or Harris, and maybe a HM harris if you plan on getting a Firewall.[/QUOTE]

    I wouln't discard HM core option here. Yes, it is 140 points but this is super mobile (6-2/6-4 C+/SJ) unit with 3 repeaters, 2 sensors, scary core linked ML ARO, decent core Mim-6 Mk12 ARO and pitcher or tinbot. All packed in armoured REM's so hard to remove and easy to fix if dice rolls would go wrong...
     
  6. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    I have been utilizing the Red Fury one in vanilla to great success.
    I usually accompany it with a vertigo, and +9CC RemRacer (not kidding), and the EVO. Combination turned out to be extremely potent. If there is an MSV ARO you literally just run straight at it - it doesn't see you, and proceed to exterminate everything that ARO was supposed to protect. And when you are done, and have a few orders leftover, you can park near that ARO, hack it through your repeater, and subsequently explode of the board/brick it. The thing about the CC RemRacer, is that it also adds to your PH, making you less vulnerable to mines and other templates, and ads to your ARM, making your AP Immunity more valuable (prevents you from losing 2 ARM to AP, in stead of 1). Also, my Vostok in this setup successfuly won a CC FtF against a Ninja, which is worth it just for the memes))

    As for the FTO loadout, I think it is worthless, at least in CJC. 5 Dice on 16s from your AP Spitfire Evader are generally better than 4 Dice on 18s from a Vostok, and don't require an EVO to achieve. If there was an Albedo FTO I would reconsider it, but that -6 ain't cutting it chief.

    Sent from my M2007J3SG using Tapatalk
     
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  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    @Alpharious that's really interesting - in CJC I'd have thought an Evader + Vostok made a interesting pairing by combing a dangerous remote with a dangerous engineer (who incidentally can follow the remote everywhere thanks to sharing climbing+) but I guess yeah you could just take just the one who does both gun and specialist, back him up with a cheap linkable doctor and be done with it.
     
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Pretty much, or even just run it stripped down with the engi and a pair of Jags. Vostok and Evader don't really do a whole lot to support each other as they both have the same range bands and against the hard targets where their kit matters they have the same damage output so it ends up being a case of bad redundancy, and there are no other engi profiles with a tinbot.

    During my time with CJC I've found that there are generally better options that do more for a list and the vostok is better left at home instead of stepping on the toes of other pieces and making this unnecessarily expensive for little gain.

    Using the above example of an EVAder in a jag haris vs the Vostok in the same.

    EVAder;
    - hacking mitigation for itself
    - decent gunfighter
    - carries a relevant weapon
    - is a relevant specialist which allows for missions bonuses and classifieds
    - smoke for evasion from the jags
    - CC backup with the jags (also allows for the evader to make a sneaky Dcharge play with gang up bonuses)
    - dirt cheap

    Vostok;
    - has gun
    - has vis mod
    - smoke and white noise evasion
    - cc back up
    - thats it, all it does it kill, nothing more
    - more expensive
    - requires more support

    Your findings may vary on what comes next but;

    Were this N3 where I could throw this thing up the table cause some havoc with 10 orders then jump over to group 2 to run another 10 through mission pieces to score with, you would take the vostok+jag team almost always, it is hyper lethal and incredibly focussed, at the cost of versatility which is what kills it in N4.

    The more I play N4 the more I find you want/ need more versatile pieces in general and fireteam compositions that are made up of mutually supportive pieces instead 4 cheap scrubs and uber gunner. when you are spending the majority of your orders on something in a game where they are INCREDIBLY limited you want that piece (either individual model or fireteams) to be able to do multiple things otherwise it isn't an efficient use of your time or orders. Another argument for more versatile and generalist pieces is that in a game where you are limited to list slots you pieces that can do more to provide some degree of good redundancy.
    In CJC a lot of the fireteams neatly fall into the category of good generalist teams made up of solid mutually supportive pieces tight up until you jam a vostok in there then it becomes a cumbersome mess as the Vostok tries to steal all the attention.
     
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  9. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    It is the prime example of "putting all eggs in one basket", and how it can backfire so, so badly. At the time that you took a Vostok Core and an EVO, you have spent in the region of 150 points... If that thing catches a crit and goes to dead, or you fail an engineer roll, and you are out of command tokens, you are done for. You will be left with a list of models brought to support something that isn't there anymore.
    And if you just spend those points a little differently, you can get an army that is just so damn synergetic, that literally everything supports everything, and that is almost impossible to break down in the same way.

    P.S. You can take a Brigada HMG for 3 points less than a Vostok, and it also has 2 wounds, but higher armor, BS, burst... The only thing it doesn't have is -6 mod.

    Sent from my M2007J3SG using Tapatalk
     
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  10. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Brigada HMG is 3 points less than the Vostok sure, but it doesn't have Climbing Plus, and if it gets shot by an AP weapon then it has exactly the same armour as the Vostok. Aside from that the Vostok needs to suffer 4 wounds before it is removed, whereas the Brigada only needs to suffer 3. Vostoks also have a different range than Bridaga HMGs so I don't really think it is fair to compare them. The Brigada HMG is an ARO sweeper. The Vostok is a hunter, and is more mobile to support this role.
     
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  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    HMG Brigada is kinda pillow fisted though, also shots significantly worse, can't take as many wounds, more vulnerable to anti armour weapons while costing more or less the same. And like the vostok core is very much a case of all your eggs in one basket for minimal gain.

    if it catches a crit it's dead, flub a doctor roll without ct's and you're kinda screwed.

    For the record I don't think either in a core is a good option.
     
  12. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    I disagree. It shoots 5 Dice at 16s when the Vostok is 4 on 18s. And the difference is, that minimal core with Brigada costs 84 points, whereas the minimal Vostok Core is 115. Within the same list as a Brigada Core you could fit a whole additional McMurrough...

    Also, Brigada is a prime candidate for a B2 medikit revival, while you can't really be doing that with Vostok and gizmo, so you have more options here.

    Sent from my M2007J3SG using Tapatalk
     
  13. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    I kinda have to mention that HMG's range bands are far more useful though..

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  14. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Sure the HMG shoots at longer ranges but you dont take a Vostok for Long Range firefights.
     
  15. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    The minimum core of a vostok is 84 and the brigada is 80.
     
  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    One thing with the extreme flexibility of CJC links is you don't even really have to decide if the Vostok goes in a Core until it hits the table, or after though. So it depends
     
    #36 Hachiman Taro, May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  17. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    By "minimum" I mean a core that has the necessary support - in case of a Brigada it is a Daktari, and for the Vostok it is the cheapest Evader engineer, and an EVO.

    Sent from my M2007J3SG using Tapatalk
     
  18. Alpharious

    Alpharious Member

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    Yeah, but if you are not putting it in a core, is there any reason to take it at all? Why not Gecko at that point?

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  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    It is absolutely fair to compare because when you invest that much in an active fire piece you want it to be universally useful and being able to engage main enemy aro piece on 1st order in deployment-to-deployment firefight while MSV aro piece can instantly tax Vostok and force you to spend orders on White noise (signed, person who rolled too high to place white noise 4 times in row) before you get in good ranges.

    Thats the main dealbreaker for me in CJC - I have played Countermeasures against my Tunguska friend last weekend and my Evader spitfire in a Jag+Jazz haris was both attacking unit and Classified Objectives champion while his seemingly optimal Vostok+Cheerkillers haris was mostly a brute force team (excellent at that) that couldnt do cards at all

    Vostok FTO is the best for Bakunin imo because of linkable clockmaker
     
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  20. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like your opponent just built a list not suited to Countwrmeasures.
     
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