Yadu are absurdly good, that's true. Basic HIs get a lot of flak, that's true. Look at Suryats or MBs, who have a lot more tools at their disposal and less competition than ORCs. But daboarder is right, there's a lot to be said about taking such unit and creating the list around it, so that all elements support each other properly. ODD/TO is all and good, but in my experience it'll never be the ultimate answer, even without considering templates. Full fireteam bonuses are enough to mitigate it enough to kill the unit with simple weight of lead. I think ORCs fare better in sectorials than in vanilla, but then again, I'm not a fan of vanilla in general. Even Haris gives them a lot of capability, and full link in Varuna will be a strong option. Exchanging HI link for a TAG+support makes this a completely different kind of list, with different sets of vulnerabilities (especially since it introduces a big one; kill TAGs order pool, and it's suddenly a lot less threatening. Same goes for Isolating it; it's easier to deal with a single model, than with a full, well protected fireteam). Main problem of the Haris is that we can't fit all we want in there; Haris, HMG and AHD will give you specialist, but no Tinbot; Tinbot instead of AHD will result in a good assault team, but without a specialist. Haris, AHD and Tinbot has no long range weapon, but I still thing this would be the one I'd go with. Other units provide the firepower or maneuverability to deal with ORC counters, while HIs move in and secure objective.
This again? If someone fails over and over again I can guarantee you the first and foremost reason is a bad list. Sure a good player can roflstomp a noob or fluffbunny with pretty much anything. Hand someone a maxed out tournament list designed for a mission and with proper Order economy before you show up with Orcs and tell people they're fine. Running a just for fun list like that - just for fun - against someone who isn't really at his A game makes for a bad sample. I've seen a 0-10 loss streak dude improve to a 5-10 after you fix his list to a level that actually allows him to play the damn game for once. 10 Order lists, triple Guard NCA, Uhlans, double TAG Vanilla lists and Bolt Cores, I've put all that on the table at least once. All of it fails to impress compared to 1.5+ Combat Groups MO Magister Link, Swiss or Tikbalang. Most of that even worked, but I wasn't facing someone I expected to lose against for most of those games. Can't fathom how people insist we need to beat the dead horse until it magically gets better. You can make Salami out of it (take the Orc HMG) but it will never walk again (the Orc Link is dead) unless you get a new Horse (Orc redesign). As long as you can run a Magister+Hospitaler Link that is: - 40-60 points cheaper - more resilient - more versatile - less affected by Hacking (Stealth/BTS6&WIP13 in case of Hospitalers) - bring a better Specialist - CC to bring a useful alternative to BS Attacks - can actually deal with Smoke (Orcs not having a DTW or Spec Fire option is a crime) - ExImp/Frenzy toggle for added Order Economy boost They're nowhere close to even look at them for being viable. Bringing an EVO for Orcs is a nice joke, 220 points and you still have to spend precious Orders/Command Tokens on buffing the weakest Linkteam in the game. With that pricetag you'll die to chipdamage from anything before Maestro/Redrum KHDs are even a concern. We're looking at 20 points per Vanilla HI wound. Order Economy is down the drain, we're still helpless vs Camo and CC which has to be compensated somehow. One Galwegian or Mutt winning a FTF with Smoke in ARO puts you in front of unsolvable problems. Not to mention what happens when JSA gets a go at them. Now that said, Varuna Orcs don't have to be bad. As long as they get completely redesigned there is still hoping. But as we're wishlisting anyway - boy do I hope the current Orcs die in a fire and pull a 'Phoenix from the Ashes' on us.
You cant though, Not in NCA, Not in ASA and not in vanilla In vanilla an ORCs competition ammounts to an AVA1 hospitaller that means you arent taking the doctor, so if you want a 35-45 pt HI and a 35-45 pt scoring HI then an ORC is your choice thats it In NCA the ORC has no competition at 35-45 pts, not for the HI role, the next closest is the Aquilla and for the HMG thats 60+ pts In ASA they have more competition from solo guarda which are amazing for their cost but are more fragile and limited in their options and certainly dont have the HMG range capability (though they do have the smoke to get the Spitfire they have access to into range)
I know, I konw, this is Varuna... but it is only an example: Shock Army of Acontecimento ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DRAKIOS Red Fury + Light Flamethrower + 2 Devabots Kydoimos / Pistol,Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 45) DEVABOT KYDOIMOS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (6) SCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 1 Devabot Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27) DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7) GUARDA DE ASSALTO Spitfire + Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges + AUXBOT_2 / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 51) AUXBOT_2 Light Shotgun + Eclipse Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (- | 6) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () ORC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40) ORC (Fireteam: Haris) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36) ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) NAGA Combi Rifle, Monofilament Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 8 SWC | 399 Points Open in Infinity Army I played sometimes this list, like I have said before, and Ihad some kind of succes: Limited Insertion and 400 points. It is a very agressive one and you have some spearheads: TAG, Guarda, Drakios if MSVL... and the HMG in haris. Scyla grantee some kind of protection against hackers. And the burst +1 in a HMG is always a good thing. With BS 14+3 in range, you shoot mostly to 14, if mitetims of any kind 11, but still 5 shots. Yes, I have only 3 specialist, but they are often enought to push all de buttons I need to push. ¿Are the ORCS vulnerables to be hacked? Of course, but if the rival have only 10 orders, he has to choose what he want to hack: ¿The Tikbalang? ¿Or de ORCS? ¿Scylla? ¿Maybe the guarda? Probably he haven't orders for every one. And yet, you have Drakios and the Naga to do some damage to the rival. Yes, maybe I could have play 2 more Guardas and another Naga insted the Orcs, but ¿who will be my Lieutenant? ¿Perhaps Rao? So, no another Naga because I will need the "slot". Could be that the ORCs don't look really effective, but I can tell you guys that they really are. I'am almost sure that the ORCs in Varuna will be much better than the ORCs in Acontecimento or Neoterra.
Guarda is pretty amazing. I use it a lot more than the Tikbalang!! But I know that is my way to play ;)
I want to use him and certainly aim to use dual Guarda a lot more once I move more into ASA again. But I definitely think he plays differently to the ORC haris or the ORC duo. He is however the closes ever in list competition ORCs ever have at their price pt Your ASA list is certainly similar to something I myself have been playing with/looking to play with (the original has singh but I dont feel like having that argument not so.... Gimme a sec and Ill post it
Agree to disagree. In Vanilla you have access to much better raw gunnery skills in terms of the Nisse - your Orc massively overpays for PH14, so I'll happily downgrade that. 4-2 Move hurts a bit, you lose the BTS and 2nd Wound, that's why the Nisse is cheaper - bring a Doc. Also immune to Hacking. Bulleteers are another contender fighting into the longer Rangeband with better MODs and Assisted Fire. If you want to desperately have 2W or more, other platforms pay extra for that, but come with vastly improved efficiency. I'd argue Aquila, Swiss and Tik (HMG) all outperform their equivalent in Orcs by a mile and then some. Aquila hits a lot of stuff at 4 or 7 points better and gives build in utility against Smoke and Camo - both a serious weakness of the Orc. tAnd the Aquila is arguably the worst of the possible upgrades. The Orc is an inbetweener and the lone HMG can have it's merits. But not having defining traits and doing nothing special has always been it's problem. You need a good reason to want that 2nd wound at a time where you also don't want to pay for one of the better troops. The one reason I can think of where that applies could be a improved Bolt Link supported by a ORC HMG Lt. With the current Orcs and Bolts I'd still take a pass here.
So ORCs, Well heres 3 lists I think leverage their strengths and where they have a role that no other unit in their list fills, List 1: PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 41) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) GROUP 2 4 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army Here they are your primary attack pieces, High BS, Good weaponry, able to be located and convey force in two different areas of the table at the same time and due to the expenditure of the Hospitaller AVA on the HDoc as a combat specialist (with the palbots needed to support the ORCs themselves they also have no competition. incidently this style of list is probably one of the few reasons in my opinion to take vanilla PanO due to leveraging cross sectorial strengths in the HDoc+HI HMG platforms, along with the Hexa+Evo hacking protection in a way NCA just cant do due to the higher cost of the Aquila HMGs and Swiss AHDs List 2: Shock Army of Acontecimento ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35) ORC (Fireteam: Haris) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36) REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) AKAL COMMANDO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 21) GROUP 2 4 SCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 2 Devabots Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 34) DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army Here they hold ground, they can anchor a flank without further support and they clear landing zones for the akal, their weaknesses are heavily mitigated by the rest of the list with a good KHD (with fantastic repeater coverage) a good source of anti-warband screening units and a good order pool to offset their higher cost. they operate as the hammer or the anvil depending on which part of the list is moving. and they do it in a way a dragoe or a pair of guardas cannot due to the nature of link bonuses. List 3: Neoterran Capitaline Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) GROUP 2 6 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army This list opperates as a mix of list 1 and 2, with a fusilier link acting as the anvil to the hammer that is a pair of solo ORC HMGs. You cant do this in this manner with a Swiss HMG+Bulleteer, not only is the other combo more expensive pts wise it does not have the ability to reach out and touch in more than a single unit (the swiss) and requires 2 different types of supporting troops in that it needs both a machinist and a TDoc, whereas the ORCs are a package which can get away with not having a machinist. These are the lists where ORCs shine, the lists where they dont run into their problems of internal competition and the lists where their weaknesses are addressed by the rest of the list with the list as a whole working as a stronger entity than just the sum of its parts.
Someone shoot me. Since when ASA has a AVA4 Palmbots ?o0 Ad rem: you know that showing that in 400 pts Limited Insertion ORCs are usefull is not giving them... well much support ?
Not that I play ASA (yet), but also never saw anyone fielding more than a standard MAX 2 Palmbots. Sometimes I've wished that I could do that in MO/Vanilla (suddenly Hospitaller Doctor can be in MANY places at once and still have his squire), but I have never before checked their AVA in ASA. Well you learn every day.
yeah its nice, probably the only real downside of the AVA2 machinists and the AVA4 palbots is, in my opinion. ASA is the least likely of our lists to leverage multiple Machinists due to its more limited access to combat REMs in terms of AVA
Since always!! N2 at least! hehehe. ;) When I play Acontecimento most of the times a put on the table 3 or 4 Palbots, they are pretty good covering a corridor or corner, yes, they will killed for sure, but with CO-3 and cover they could be make the rival waste 2 order instead one. And still you have probably the second level of inconscious. And they can discover as ARO "for free". I only pretend to bring another point of view. I think they are a lot of troops, wich the players complains a lot because they don't have an opportunity in the local meta: 300 points, IL or not. But when the meta change you can find that this miniature, wich don't work usually at 300 points, is really good at 400 or 200. The same occurs to me with the Ayar in Hassasin. This haquiss troup at 300 it is so... "nothing", but when I play it at 200 points he shines because become a "killing" machine and too a "pushing machine". I believe that is what happend with ORCS. They can work but probably in others range, wich the people don't play frequently But the machinist is a "pretty good" specialist (with D-Charges... Yes, it looks like I'am joking) and very often ACO-players play with 2 TAGs, so 2 machinist make the trick... The rival needs to take down the TAG forever and not only puts him unconscious :)
I find when running 2 TAGs that 1 machinist +palbots is the best afford/coverage I can get, and occasionally only the single machinist, its rare I actually lose-lose a TAG though, I'll lose a mission but usually come out of it with almost all my units intact.
Perhaps, but I hate being a victim of circumstance. Id rather shape and mold a meta to my own ideas and play than just give up on a unit because it doesnt work. If a unit isnt working Id rather find a theory for how to make it work, test and tweak lists to leverage that theory then use it on the table. I find in my experience that this leads to more fulfilling gameplay on my part and that the Meta will respond to my list choices in this manner, as opposed to trying to just counter what my opponents take (ie: playing to the Meta) what im saying is Id rather be active in my choices and designs than reactive
That's all well and good, but I am more wary of encouraging others down blind alleys in terms of list design. But in any case, we are WELL beyond the topic of Varuna here. So the matter should lie moot.
teaching people how to think critically to solve problems is always better than just giving them an answer.
Two spitfire bulleteers have more presence than any combination of two ORCs. In any sectorial or generic.
