Oh, WOW, you know what Swiss Guard cost! You must be a TRUE INFINITY MASTER. If only someone had considered running Solo ORC HMGs before! THIS is what nobody else has ever considered and will make all the arguments about the unit go away... Except. No. Literally none of the problems with the ORC are solved by this, except now your long range attack piece isn't actually a PanO standard shooter and even MORE enemy lists can shut you down.
They dont. Not appreciably vs an opponent whi brings the correct tools to deal with them. And if that single swiss dies you are screwed and locked out of the 24-32 range band
Tbf, the Swiss and the Bulleteer is 91/3 - the two Orcs are 88/4. It only requires dropping the palbot. This list also doesn't demonstrate the spec fire you said was needed to deal with Mutts/Hecklers. What was the alternative tool in this list for those threats?
I said spec fire deals with hard to reach threats. It does. But so does the auxilia. They both fulfil a similar role in the list. That being said an lgl woild be something i would look at adding to the list upon refinement of it. Or grenades
The problem with that argument is that it's MUCH easier to kill two ORCs than one Swiss. Especially in the reactive turn. And even if you do lose the Swiss it's an unusual table which doesn't have at least one approach lane for a Bulleteer to get into 24" while the Swiss handles the longer lane.
Except it aint is it. Vs an msv trooper or a dtw the swiss is just an arm5 bs15 orc. Or a ml or t2 crit. The point of the orcs is there are two of them and two of them offers a lot more in terms of presence on the table order efficiency and redundancy of threats
lolwhat? Swiss hmg's chances of killing ANYTHING are higher than ORCs. Even if an opponen has MSV ARO piece, Swiss still have higher BS. Screwed without Swiss? Wasn't it u who wrote about correct list-building and learning 2 play on previous page? Even ur list has Garuda to attack from behind and a missile Fusi to shot from a distance.
Higher ARM and BTS than:) Marker state to avoid hacking. Hell, even msv2 has a chance to fail against markered Swiss
And the list is built around 2 range attack pieces. If you try put only 1 in and that one dies...then yes....i think its screwed
I see we are moving the goalposts now.. Im done here and return to my previous statement. Its not the orcs
Every single not-shitty list has at least 2 attackers:) Toxic again? ur so nice. Let's return than. U haven't beaten or answered ANY argument about ORC fireteam beeing bad. Well, except for active turn hacking. U can start from there, without bold and bald statements and talking about a 5man fireteam.
this is kinda the issue Injengr. Its not about "beating" your argument, its about explaining how you use an ORC fireteam, what its role on the table is, what it and ORCs in general offer a list that other units do not and then about how you build a list around them to mitigate their weaknesses and to facilitate their strengths both linked and unlinked. until you can look at them in that manner you will never like them, because as I said, you are thinking of the game in X pts and SWC does X damage and SWC with Y chance of survival. thats fine for a certain level of play I guess, but theres a lot more to this game such as damage mitigation, vectors of attack, table presence ect.
And again nothing of value and particular. Daboardr is the only master of a game and others are worthless noobs. Thx, i'm out. ORCs suck.
Yeah, thats true but Orc are not so much worst that you can't win consistently with daboarder example list. Its certainly a sold list. Daboarder takes these types of lists into his own meta and wins pretty consistantly so he's speaking from experience that you can win with Orcs. A bulleteer doesn't fill the same role as an Orc with HMG, the superior range and 2 wounds can certainly make a difference on certain tables with long enough fire lanes. I get that basic HI are not for everyone. There will always be superior choices so people who want the best value for their buck will pick more elite units. But whats often over looked is that basic HI can win you the game just fine. An Orc with HMG can kill most units in the game just fine. And unlike 1 Swiss Guard HMG, two Orc HMG are harder to counter because you have two decent HMG units instead of relying on one. Frankly, all the lists that can be used to counter Orc can counter swiss guard as well. Its the nature of infinity, everything including TAGs can die and they can die surprisingly fast if well countered. Its one of the big appeals of Infinity to me, is that you can make "sub par" units not only work but be consistent as well. Its a testament to the balance of the game. Edit: I sad to see this discussion get so heated but I'm pretty sure AdmiralJCJF and daboarder can both agree this is a bit of a silly argument to get so angry about. Lets just cool off and make amens latter.
Nope, I'm not going to argue again, I just want to make my opinion clear: - the list is solid, but imo it can be improved - the list is solid, but initially we were talking about a fireteam, not a single or couple of ORCs - the list is solid, but i'm not going to discuss a list while smb is trying to offend me or just beeing bitchy May be you are right. But it's impossible to underestimate an ability of a unit to fulfill many roles on a table, and ORCs are just too straighforward to be popular.
Understandable, discussions can get heated on the internet. Lets just take a break and cool down. I'm sure daboarder isn't trying to be nasty to you on purpose. If anyones been bitchy on this board before, its certainly been me. If you've read my posts long enough you know I can be moody. lol "May be you are right. But it's impossible to underestimate an ability of a unit to fulfill many roles on a table, and ORCs are just too straighforward to be popular." LOL, I'm pretty sure most of the players of the other factions in this game think the same way about Pano as a whole.
I'am agree with your last conclusion, they are much more in the Game, if din't we will have a real problem and you can avoid easily play on the table only running the stats in a page like: http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/, and we will save a lot of time and effort because deploy will be unnecesary. It is the same as my local meta, Achilles is broken. And if you only calculate the chances against one unit or other probably you could have this impression and you could be right. For example, I played over a year hassasin, because is funny, and now I am going into Interplanetario. I use "inf-dice" to calculate what chances I have to defeat Achilles and the best is lower than a 50%, and it is the best. The others odds go down to 35% or something like that. So, if the enemy have Achilles in her list I should throw my towel and says: "You wins". But it isn't because Infinity are a little more than calculated statistics. The table, the mission and the escenografy make a lot in your chances to win... and the dices must speak... The same applies to the ORCs. Nobody denies that some profiles need an update, like ORCs, but from here to say that are worthless and unplayable... We can find a long, long way. Maybe ORCs are harder to play than others profiles and nothing more. So, if you don't like it, don't play with them, but if you wanna to play with ORCs listen to the people who says that they play with them. Maybe so you can find how to make this profile playable. I'am not a big fan of orcs, but somethimes a play with them in Acotencimento and gave me some joy. It is true was a Tournament IL and 400 points, unnusual, but the ORCs haris work properly and well. Yes, with the help of a nagga monofilament and supported by a Tikbalang. But in the end all the troops need support from others in order to achieve his goals. Not a single model can be play alone. And I think that is what the players who find a spot to the ORCs in his armylist are trying to say. So, I hope the ORCS in Varuna bring new toys, wich make them more playable than they are now. Greetings
I think maybe a bit of practical example may help direct the conversation a bit rather than the round about we have? I was playing with my CA the other day and a hollow+kriza link had taken the center. My daturazi tossed smoke in front of them, a mine was placed to catch two of them, bit shot a repeater to put them all in range for my other hacker while positioning herself and kiss to shoot and setting up the charontid for a shot aswell. This sort of thing can illustrate a problem with baseline HI where I forced multiple bad choices on them at once beyond normal infantry. I think it’s fair to say that when faced in a situation like this, orcs have limited capabilities to adequately extract themselves if they are taking up a large section of your list as a five man link. Given the presence of what I can only term super hackers, as it stands orcs don’t have a super viable specialist at the moment. In many ways it’s another layer of vulnerability. Tinbot lvl 1 is going to be a small help with only bts 3. I can appreciate a BS 14 platform but I can’t help but feel that it doesn’t cover its weaknesses enough nor contribute enough to FtF rolls to warrant their use over other pieces.
