I can see strong background justification for a Pathfinder in any Fireteam from Varuna. But your own words on the issue are pretty damning: You are literally the person fighting the HARDEST in defense of the ORCs, and the absolute best thing you can say about them is that "they're alright"? Yeah, that says it all. Are they playable? Sure. Can win games with them? Sure. Are there some mission/matchup sets which make them better? Sure (especially as the only Haris in NCA). They're alright. But for the same points you can get things that do the same job far better than "alright", and it's that internal competition which has ALWAYS been the problem.
Git gud? Orcs are good when used right. They are our best vanilla gunfighter HI. which are cheap enough and have high enough ava to leverage to take multiples of. In links they are even better with good arm good weapons and if positioned properly are a nightmare to dig out. B2 BS20 shotguns are not something that your opponwnt wants to face, and BS14 B2 DA rounds are the same. Oh you have to pick and choose where to make your stand with them, but thats absolutely fine and realisitcally a big part of top teir play. This being said, I find a lot more use for them in ASA and Vanilla and as yet havent been able to build an NCA ORC list that im happy with
Behold - twohundredandthree points for a no frills HI Core. In numbers 203. What else could we get here? Spoiler: Who knows, really... Frenzy is such a big downside We_don't_even_call_this_good.jpg ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 33) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37) 4 SWC | 202 Points Open in Infinity Army Spoiler: hm nope not even HI... U WOT M8? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 4.5 SWC | 203 Points Open in Infinity Army Spoiler: too cheap, doesn't count.... Whatever am I gonna do with all those leftover points? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 3 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 41) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) 4 SWC | 160 Points Open in Infinity Army I have nothing guys, gotta pass. Solo Orc HMG all the way for me, nice dude. Could use a community colleage course or a coupon for a random Skill or piece of equipment, but pretty chill otherwise.
As to "links" If I get this, I think I'll be happy. A tinbot+AHD will fold into lists nicely and force multiply together nicely, BS17 HMGs at B5 are always good as premier attacking pieces and the BSs are just gravy, come fight me go on. Now Im happy to tweak this once we see what the Character does, and depending on her gear I may sub out the tinbot or AHD or both as appropriate. PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35) ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35) ORC Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 42) ORC MULTI Rifle + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 41) 3 SWC | 197 Points Open in Infinity Army I
I think the 5-trooper Core of ORCs will have the same viability in Varuna as the Mobile Brigada Core does in Corregidor. I'll look forward to facing them either way.
Sooo..are we actually discussing a 200pt fireteam with no stealth, no movement skills, no DTW, no CC, the only and shitty specialist and subpair hacking protection? A fireteam which movement can be severely restricted or even halted by a single well-placed repeater? Yeah, ORCs are not bad in shooting by PanO standarts, but vulnurable to every single counterpick for HI.
Its not your lists. And that link team goes a long way to force multiply out the weaknesses of HI to their counters.
Ah, come on. "It's not your list" was funny a decade ago. Since you are so cool, explain, pls, how and which HI-counters do ORCs with numbers 2,3,4 and 5 counter?
Alright. So firstly in addition to the points above. what the link above suggested offers is an AHD with 2W BTS 3, that then gets SS2 (And can hold vs any hackable target moving in its repeater ZOC), snd enemy hacker WP -3 due to the tinbot. This then can force multiply nicely with an Evo, Kaleidoscope offers the abillity to add a further -3 WIP ti enemy hackers and is therefore a good buff to add when you expect to fight KHDs who ignore the firewall mods of your repeaters, or when fighting enemy hackers through your repeaters (for a further -3 WIP, BTS+3 swing) If however you expect opposition AHDs or HDs to go straight for the AHD as opposed to going through your repeater (IE you havent screened properly) they you then have the option to use fairy dust for gaining the firewall mods directly on your HI. Finally all this then Combo's with the combination of Oblivion and Carbonite. With those mods an ORC AHD stands solid odds of 1) stopping a hacker in its tracks and then 2) turning off the attacking hacking device through isolation when it tries to reset. And the Mod swing can and often will end up at WIP+3, BTS+3 for the ORC (carbonite) and WIP -9 for the opposition hacker if you use it correctly. So yeah, thats the massive bonus stack you get for just the ORC AHD in the above setup if you use it correctly. And on top of that you still have a shed tonne of B2 High Dam AROs that will outshoot most solo combo pieces in their positive range bands. Hospitallers cant do that, certainly not as efficiently as ORCs, they can get access to defersen but that then leaves the link with a solo critical point of failure because he is both the active gun and the AHD ability for the link, furthermore defersen doesnt pack a tinbot to add negative modifiers to the opposition hackers. Next time look at what a profile offers to your list and what your list offers to a profile to work together. stop playing additive or you will forever be at the whim of other players, play with multipliers and you will find ways to boost the strength of your units
And thats just the 5 man, the Haris and Duo and even unlinked in vanilla all have roles and jobs they can offer to a list that cannot be obtained elsewhere. For example, the Haris gives access to a high BS, High ARM B5 weapon that has either a scoring unit dragged along with it (my preferred idea for NCA due to access to hexa KHDs and Deva Hackers) or can be buried behind a defensive wall of auto-hitting shotguns (its hillarious good in ASA where the 3 models can hold your DZ almost alone) The duo then has amazing flexibillity in ASA offering a fairly solid MR+AHD scoring combo that makes a pretty nice fighty/defensive force for minimal investment. And in vanilla running ORC HMGs is the only way to get sub 60pt 2W HMGs without eating your hospitaller slot (which is better used for the Doc in most situations.) This actually fits nicely into NCA as well, particularly given the higher order counts NCA can tend towards and with an fusilier link as ARO support.
Check out the sticked "A primer on Massed Armour Tactics" for more info on doing crazy stuff like taking 5 HI in your lists and making it work. And thats without the benefit of a linked team. Note who wrote that guide, daboarder.
I was just about thanking u for the analysys and entering in a discussion of weak points of ur plan and list such as unopposed hacking of moving ORCs and shitload of orders and units to support it, but this last paragraph...so, i'll be toxic too. Most common HI threats, at least in my meta: 1. Hacking - while AHD guy got decent protection in ur list, other 4 ORCs can be easily hacked unopposed on their move. U can return and imm\isolate enemy hacker next order, but u can't kill him with AHD so u have just lost at least 2 orders and probably got an imm'ed ORC. Any HI with stealth can ignore that problem on their move. 2. E\M weapons - it's soo good to have ur fireteam attacked with jammer or E\M DTW. Even if u manage to deploy safe, there are still grenade and mine (both E\M ofc) possibilities. Yeah, the threat is common, but some guys like Swiss can mitigate it by entering a marker state. ORCs can not, they are 3 time more expensive and have a great chance to be caught in 2-3 models under a template. 3. Smoke+CC - u will have no LoF to some CC monster until he enters in base contact so the only thing u can do in responce is stabb him with a 15CC knife. Knights, on the other hand, will gladly fight and kill that guy. 4. Visual MODs guys - not that scary, but still. ORCs can neither mitigate a -6 MOD from TO\ODD no impose their own negatife MOD. And now I wanna stress the main part: ORCs have all of HI weaknesses and haven't a solid defence agains any common HI threat.
Ok, maybe dial back the "git gd" roundabout here. @psychoticstorm this would be a great time for some moderation, just saying. At best we're looking at marginal situational usage of a unit with high opportunity cost. Even accepting the best case scenario defense of the ORC Core (requiring over 200pts investment and minimum 3.5 SWC) in the hacking example it's pretty obvious that the other weaknesses of the Fireteam will be high for the cost. If what we see now is the best Varuna ORCs are going to bring to the table then they aren't going to be a common sight any more than they are in the existing lists who can access them. One thing which they MIGHT have going for them in Varuna is lack of competition. But that's hardly a ringing endorsement.
Furthermore you realise that all these are dealt with by playing better? For example why are you bunching up when there is template EM on the table, where is your Speculative fire for killing hard to reach models like hecklers and Mutts. Why are you parking your ORCs in locations where warbands (which you can see on the table) are able to Smoke you out easily? Where are your screening troops? (we have them, take them, Fugazi, Auxilia, Minelayers) Just because a unit has a weakness doesnt make it bad, what role it fulfils in the army, how that army is built around that role and how you use it on the table all matter so much more. Stop expecting ORCs to be the "Do everything unit" they dont exist stop blaming the tools
I don't want ORCs to be "the do everything unit". I don't expect ORCs to be "the do everything unit". But currently there's nothing that they do that can't be done better, or done FAR cheaper and just as well, by other units. I just want ORCs to be "the do SOMETHING unit".
Lets put the above idea into practice shall we. Neoterran Capitaline Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) GROUP 2 6 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army What do ORCs offer this list? They offer 2 good gunfighters that have high BS, are tough and have the added benefit of not being locked into a single section of the table, as such they offer multiple engagement angles. how does the list mitigate the ORC weaknesses? By investing in Screening troops in teh form of the Auxilia FOs and the Fugazi who are disposable ARO pieces) By taking units that cna hunt camo and hard to reach midfield threats (Again the auxilia and Fugazis+pathfinder) By investing in a defencive hacking screen (EVO+Hexa KHD combo'd with the afformentioned Fugazis) By taking scoring options elsewhere (the Fusilier FOs and Auxilia FOs are good pushable troops late and early game respectively) And finally it protects the investment with the Tdoc who has great odds of ressing said ORCs with command tokens. The list then adds a few other overlaping layers in the Garuda offering an alternative attack vector and the Evo adding another layer of ARO with the fugazi. But on the whole the ORCs a filling a role in that list that no other unit in NCA can fill that way
Are you, with a straight face, trying to argue that list is not immediately improved by dropping the ORCs and subbing in a Swiss Guard HMG and a Bulleteer? Because if you are, then I call you a liar, sir.
Bullshit. Stop dropping common things without examples.U r not the only seasoned player here. You can't exaclty predict a Kitsune's or TO AHD's place on a table. Can't say where and when will Yuan drop or enter. What magic sort of spec fire are u going to put in ur list with 5 ORCs, EVO, doc and stuff? And, it can shock u, but some tables got buildings with roofs and closed windows, how are u going to spec fire 'em? Screen? So u are going to move a fireteam, than move all of screening troops? U got 200pts fireteam with at least 42 pts of backup, where will u find orders. And, responding to ur list: we were talking about a full 5-men fireteam, not about a couple of unlinked ORC, so the list u wrote will proof nothing.
Yeah well sure mate, list is beyond you if you say so. Also youll note a bulleteer has a spitfire not a hng and a swiss costs almost the price of the 2 ORCs alone Edit and dont call me a liar.
But both or them got higher chances to kill an enemy and survive opposite player's turn. And that's the problem: u can play ORCs, but they are worse than any other choise.
