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Varuna deforms the meta pretty intensely

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Hecaton, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Coordinated orders have been suggested a few times before. Adding the maths for a particular unit is interesting too.

    I find it a bit problematic on an actual table sometimes for a few reasons:
    • if I'm going first generally the Kamau player will see my deployment of these units and can not deploy so they can do it.
    • If I'm going second so I can more easily counter deploy an already deployed kamau and leave these long range units out, Varuna has a big advantage in shooting them dead first.
    • To see the same thing often troops need similar LOF which can mean bunching them together, which is not ideal in infinity for a bunch of reasons we probably all know, in fact if I'm not going first so I can counter deploy the Kamau bunching them up like this might see them not survive into my turn to attempt it.
    • If there are multiple places with good LOF to where I can reasonably well guess the Kamau might deploy, that seems likely a pretty open table that suits Varunas great shooting anyhow.
    • To use these tactics I basically have to sacrifice one of my own units by spending my own orders, if the Kamau decides to take one with it. Losing your own long range units in your own turn is not generally ideal.
    • The Kamau is Shock Immune, so 1 wound won't kill it. So against a competent player potentially I've lost a unit to just inconvenience the Kamau player by shooting at it with 1 burst 1 wound causing weapons like non multi sniper rifles.
    I'm not saying this tactic is useless or anything. It's potentially quite useful in the right situation (I've done similar with Daylami Panzerfaust many times in the past when people leave out "fight me now" AROs). I'm just saying that maths on paper needs to be put in the context of a complex game on the table with many difficult to account for on paper variables, so that makes it one of a bunch of potential tools, but no magic bullet. Not that we even want magic bullets, really.

    There are ways around some of the problems I raise too. Like maybe including a camo skirmisher in the coordinated order, who can gain LOF from a different angle and add nuance to the threat with its camo and close proximity etc.

    I guess what I'm really saying is none of this is quite as black and white on the table as it comes across in text, regardless of which side of a discussion you are on.
     
    #161 Hachiman Taro, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    TRZ accounts for the need to move models into position. Also, on many tables the threat will not be 'is there a kamau', it will be 'is there a kamau in this particular spot'. If a varuna player deploys the Kamau somewhere conservative in response to a perceived threat from your snipers, the USARF player is already up, and can just fall back on a much more standard USARF gameplan, with the only cost being that they have three core linked sniper grunts now just being core linked sniper grunts. Which seems fine.
     
  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Sure.

    To be honest, seems to be in response to but not to particularly engage with my point though.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I mean, you'll always be safe saying 'it's not going to be quite that black and white on the table', because infinity is a heavily execution-based game with a prodigious number of variables that can't really be accounted for in the hypothetical scenario space we're limited to on the forums. I'm basically agreeing, with caveat.
     
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  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    If 'it's not quite that black and white' was all I had to say, it probably would have been all I said. I feel like there's a fair bit more to it than that. But sure, it's nice to agree, with caveats I guess.
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yeah very true.

    It's important to remember that specific solution was in response to the risk of kamau covering most of the table in a favorable set up for the kamau. And for specifically a high percentage chance of success regardless of orders.

    We can go back and forth about specific problems and solutions ad infintum as people add and remove variables.
    As you say there is no magic bullet, but it's safe to say there are a number of solutions a USariadnan player can bring, and even more specific ones if they're especially concerned about open tables +/- kamaus.
     
  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Good point, though I cant comment very expertly on USARF not having played them myself. I don't mean really to refute the main point, but to add nuance to it from my own experience. And then you did the same to mine. I feel like the conversation is productive when we do that regardless of what our end opinion is rather than trying to prove each other wrong or backbiting (which Im probably as guilty of as anyone).

    I could be wrong but I feel like Ariadna probably suffers the worst from Kamau though, since tradionally they rely on sneaking around in smoke (and camo), it feels like quite a flip to have that suddenly countered so hard, and they don't have some of the obvious high tech tools (like nimbus) to rps it back. They might have adequate tools as well, but I think it's probably still fair to note.

    Playing a newer faction like Shas I dont really fear the Kamau much at all. But then you start wondering, isn't that what power creep would feel like? Bearing in mind the game still feels pretty damn balanced by any reasonable standard.
     
    #167 Hachiman Taro, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Out of interest, have you played Varuna yourself?
     
  9. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Interest in what? Trying to one up people on the internet? I apologise of that's the wrong impression, but thats distinctly the tone I get from that question without any further context: an attempted mike drop. Which I've already made my view fairly clear on here.

    In answer to your question, no I havent played as Varuna, but I've played against them enough (and enough against very good players) to be quite familiar with them. Less so USARF. God forbid anyone admit they don't know everything though, right? Lets hone in on that.

    What I did do is offer to play Varuna against daboarders scots to test what theoriesof them work in practice a bit. Which he declined. So at least Im willing to put models where my mouth is.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not quite power creep since IA, Tunguska, Ramah, and TAK aren't doing what OSS and Varuna are doing.
     
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  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    One useful blow against the stupid Kamau snipers in every single Varuna list would be making sure that the info on the anti-Makau-sniper-white-noise-linkteam-trick is disseminated as widely as possible. Make sure that every Infinity player you know understands the principle.

    Let's make VIRD players start to see it as a points sink and giving up an expensive easy kill to most opponents.
     
  12. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Would you mind elaborating? White noise doesn't help against SSLV2, does it?
     
  13. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    drop a white noise, move your gunner inside it and one of the fireteam guy outside of it. The kamau must react against the guy outside, and therefore can't oppose the gunner with anything other than a dodge when he declares a bs attack as the second part of the order.

    Also works with albedo in fireteam (gwailo haris says hi) and coordinated orders.
     
  14. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Edit: ninjaed by @Sedral , but lengthy version below might head off some questions too.

    The Anti-KamauMSVguy tactic goes like this:

    1. Throw down White Noise between Annoying Kamau Sniper Guy and a place where you can have a linkteam with high-burst weapon pop out of cover to shoot at him. In the example here, Alguacile linkteam with an HMG.

    2. Declare Move with the linkteam, with the HMG as link leader. Move one of the other troopers (random unlucky Alguacile) outside the White Noise area so the Kamau can see him. Keep the poor little bugger in cover at least if you can, but if not, just run him right out there. Keep the HMG inside the White Noise, meanwhile, and pop him inot a place where he can shoot the Kamau.

    3. Kamau has to react to the random Alguacile or lose his ARO. He can't delay or anything, and he can't see the HMG to shoot him.

    4. Declare BS Attack with the HMG guy. You either get unopposed shots against the sniper while he kills a hapless Alguacile, or he has declared Dodege (smarter) and is going to duck out of LoS in the unlikely event that he survives.

    While the Kamau has SSL2 so he doesn't have the -6 from getting shot through a White Noise zone, he still can't react to the HMG by shooting.

    This trick also works with anything linkable, so random Wildcards thrown into a Duo with a TAG, Ashcroft Hunting Parties, etc. A full link has the best chances of course, and that Kamau is going to hide if he gets the chance, so try to get a killshot the first time. High Burst, good range.

    The best troopers to pull it off have Albedo and are linkable, because you don't even have to do White Noise on them. The new Shasvastii Gwailos is basically made for this, with the M-drone buddy. It's more of a points sacrifice there, but even more crucial to kill the MSV2 sniper if you play Shas.
     
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  15. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Thanks, that's pretty nifty and another way of leveraging the Black Friar in a core FT.
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah, it depends a bit on the exact definition you give power creep (which we tend to use pretty loosely I think) but it seems inuitively that there was more of a little bump there. Some of those add powerful elements to their vanilla factions, but I was definately a bit relieved about power creep when I saw some newer faction releases. Also, they have seemingly addressed it a little, adding more tools vs links, and perhaps N4 levels the playing field making it all moot.

    I think they mean moving one (disposable) model in LOF of the Kamau outside white noise, forcing an ARO against it, after which a secind model shoots the Kamau from within white noise as the second short skill, meaning the Kamau cant shoot back at the model in white noise. The two models have to activate together for this to work (either be linked or coordinated, or using perimiter equipment like crazy koalas etc). Not a lot of help to Ariadna I think, but quite viable in say Vanilla Nomads.
     
    #176 Hachiman Taro, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  17. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Sure thing. It's also a good way to deal with Haidao snipers, Yaogats, Maruts on Suppression Fire, etc.

    Kinda sucks that Ariadna doesn't have that counter available, but that's the faction's downside in exchange for the massive upsides.
     
  18. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Ah, forgot about Coordinated Orders and perimeter weapons! Way more viable for vanilla factions, thanks for pointing that out.
     
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  19. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    If only White Noise/Albedo were more readily available in general.
     
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  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah Moran + Interventor is virtually made for it.

    I think white noise is limited quite deliberately, though who knows what happens in the future.
     
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