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Varuna deforms the meta pretty intensely

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Hecaton, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Yep. Usually something like a team of Volunteers and a Highlander Grey AP HMG, then whatever midfield specialist or striking elements and defensive the player prefers (SAS/Scots Guard/Caterans), then a warcor, then Galweigans with chain rifles until you're at two full combat groups of angry kilts.

    Here's an example, which is cobbled together in five minutes and not necessarily optimal, but should give you some idea of what I mean:

    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]7 [​IMG]5
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)
    DOZER Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army


    The dozer is strictly because I had 13pts left. I dunno, maybe I might need to engineer wallace if he gets E/M grenaded or something?
     
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  2. RasPuto

    RasPuto Active Member

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    I've always planned to use this, but I think it would get crashed by a linked MSV2 Sniper (like Kamau, as we're talking about him).

    Caledonia Irregulars
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 21)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]6 [​IMG]5
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Molotok / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    @RasPuto one of the things you'll notice is that my list (which I edited the post to include) has a backup highlander Grey to give a good chance of forcing the Kamau down. However, if I were looking to adapt to a Kamau specifically I might rejig the groups so I've got the option to coordinate something like a missile launcher scot, a cateran or two, and an unlinked grey. In total this is likely to result in a dead scot (although not certainly) but has a very high kill chance against the Kamau.

    The SAS with Grenades and Uxia are both good tools for dealing with the Kamau. I'd split them into different groups, but basically you should be able to use Uxia to clear the way so that the SAS can get close enough to roll some risk-free grenades against the fusilier link. The only thing that would make this especially difficult is if the core link is well deep into the PanO deployment zone, which at least increases the likelihood that they have more restrained lines of fire.

    That said: I'm not an expert in Caledonians. There is probably more that could be done. I do like your list though.
     
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  4. RasPuto

    RasPuto Active Member

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    Thanks man! I've started playing Infinity with TAK and Vanilla, then bought USARF and CHA, now I'm focusing on Haqqislam (all the sectorials and Vanilla), so I've got a good bunch of ideas but still have a lot to learn. Anyway, your explanation was super useful, so thanks again!
     
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  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Personally im a fan of the sas crap for kamau killing. Using a grey is too much like a fair fight

    Coordinated caterans, cameronians and katyusha are also potential options for cracking the link
     
    #85 daboarder, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is true, but I think this is one of the cases where it's not the "overwhelming majority of the time."
     
  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I mean, I think the whole OP argument is that a piece like the Kamau sniper fundamentally changes the game a bit more in the direction of being more about your list. It doesn't take it all the way there by itself, not by any means, not even close, or even in the same ballpark IMHO.

    But I'm not sure how saying the game is largely execution based ("it's you") while largely true and perhaps perceptive, really helps the criticism that a particular piece might tend to make it slightly less so, when that execution emphasis is exactly what a lot of people like about the game. Even more so posting lists or pieces to include in your list that can tailor it to help deal with a Kamau Sniper. It's a good point @barakiel made about perhaps bringing pieces that used to be seen as more marginal (eg white noise) more into use, which would be a good effect. To me it all also emphasises the point that it's a piece it's pretty useful to tailor your list against a bit (making it a bit more "your list"), which is a major point of the original criticism.

    It's far from the end of the world. And it probably has some positive effects (like evolving the meta, as several people have said). But I think it's fair to say there's some truth in the OP point too. Usually there's some truth in both sides of an argument, though that seldom seems to get acknowledged online.
     
    #87 Hachiman Taro, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  8. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
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    It only changes your list if you weren't already dealing with ARO pieces with MSV2, good BS, and visibility mods of their own. The same tools I used to handle Intruders and Nisses are the same tools I use to handle a linked Kamau...
     
  9. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! Is the Kamau easy to overcome? No. But it’s not terribly difficult in comparison to the challenges other factions bring.

    When I first started playing I couldn’t beat ALEPH. Period. ODD on in cover models with long range AROs. I couldn’t win. So I sought out ALEPH players and badgered them for games. Now I can deal with ALEPH. And I know that they are a challenge so every list I build has the tools to deal with them. Is the super optimal for every game? No. But, my challenge is to then find roles for those units in every game I play, and I find uses for them.
     
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  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I get your point but also many, perhaps even most, tools that will win against an Intruder will lose against a linked Kamau Sniper. Like, even something simple like an active 5 linked Alguacile HMG will beat an Intruder Sniper in a straight fight. Not so a Kamau. So I'm not sure saying you just use the same tools really works as a counter argument. An Intruder has to be used quite carefully to be an effective reactive piece (which is an example of good gameplay design IMHO), a Kamau often doesn't without specific elements brought to counter it.
     
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  11. Cabaray

    Cabaray Well-Known Member
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    We have enough to scare the poop out of a Varuna player. Mirage-5, Van Zant, Warbands/Dogs that are not in his line of fire, but getting closer anyway. Our Infiltration will reach objectives sooner. When I see fort kick ass, I think about this:
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If that's true for you, that's great, but that's not true for a lot of us. We could handle Intruders and Nisse (And MSV2 snipers like Djanbazan and so on) just fine but not so much the Kamau sniper.
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    On this point - I didn't have to change my lists much for a Kamau, but when I was learning Tohaa I went through a long iteration process that involved a lot of adaptive list changes to high quality TAGs and core linked HI ARO elements. These were definately cases where I had to change my list to adapt to circumstance, but I'm also pretty sure my lists and play got way stronger generally as a result of adapting to the challenge.

    Point being: even if you do have to make a change to overcome a challenge, doing so can still produce an overall improvement. Being forced out of our comfort zones from time to time produces growth.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think its a matter of being "forced out of our comfort zones from time to time." At least not for me.

    There's certain things I have to bring *because* I might run into the Kamau sniper, and if the Kamau sniper didn't exist I wouldn't have to run them. But it does, and I don't know if I'll be facing the Kamau sniper any given round, so I have to include them.
     
  15. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah, even in the most basic direct way its not like taking something that can straight outshoot a Kamau (like a B5 HI) is a bad thing generally anyway.

    The other thing is that adaptive change like that applies to CB too. They seem to react to these kind of things by adding more things that are naturally good against them (in this case say eg Dazers and Stratuscloud) over time, evolving the meta game further too. Its not always my favourite way, but it works.
     
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  16. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
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    What exactly do you feel forced to take that you weren’t taking already?
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Mate it was the Grunt Infiltrating Heavy Flamer throwers, van zant, airborne ranges, hardcases and desperados.


    Havent you been paying attention. Truly such units would never have been run ever ever in a serious USARF list before the blight that is a good ARO piece
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Marauders fireteam (now just the Marauder HMG, I suppose), Minutemen HMG mostly. Van Zant is ok but the last time I ran into them into Varuna in a tournament there was nowhere I could walk on and catch the Fusiliers in the back from outside of cover while staying in it. Airborne rangers don't really get the job done against that fireteam a lot of times, since their deployment is so restricted compared to Van Zant. Desperadoes just get shot.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm sure you're so terrified of Desperadoes on the other side of the table when your Kamau sniper can just kill them.
     
  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Patronising sarcasm, thinly veiled personal insults and the like really destroy any useful dialogue IMHO. It'd be better if we could talk usefully about things we have different points of view on.