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Varuna deforms the meta pretty intensely

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Hecaton, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I react at the list building stage to a bunch of potential inputs, including scenario, expected terrain, and things I perceive to be strong or popular (which can include 'what's is being played by people who I consider to be very strong players that I expect will be attending' when we're talking about the runup to an event).

    I know there's an old drumbeat of 'it's not your list', but really, your list should contain a selection of tools that let you engage with the challenges you're likely to face in any given game.

    Often, though, I'll find that I can adapt to a new challenge without significant list changes, provided the list had a robust set of tools already. Usually this is a case of putting a few mental cycles into it - for example, if I'm on the way to the game store and have some spare headspace, I'll ask myself questions like like 'without changing my current list, how would I engage a limited insertion Marut list? How would I engage a twenty order galweigan or ISS horde? How would I engage a Kamau? How would I engage a linked heavy infantry missile launcher?'

    Almost always an answer presents itself after a bit of working through the problem. Sometimes it doesn't, and in that case that can be cause for a bit of a list tweak, or more often think about the pair I'm running.
     
    #61 RobertShepherd, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  2. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    This so much. An extremely oversimplified description of the Kamau is as a piece that turns the game into a coin flip. The VIRD player leverages the fact that the opponent does not want to flip that coin to gain advantage in every game, meaning they get their advantage and the ability to fall back on a coin flip if they end up on the back foot. Keep making VIRD flip that coin, especially on unfavourable odds, and the strategy loses its power.

    If your 60-40 attack fails, just shrug lol. Even the Avatar is on surprisingly mediocre stats against the Kamau. Just laugh if it happens and go back to flipping that coin next game.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I run supportware TR HMGs and a cheap engineer in a lot of lists simply because it lets me keep flipping the coin in the same turn until I win. Although a few local players like @Musterkrux have started to get wise and start firing stun rounds back at me, which is a cute counter-adaptation adaptation.

    (Admittedly this all isn't hugely useful advice to a thread in the Ariadna subforum, which is why I haven't raised it previously)
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I really like that idea. The individual coin flip is pretty shit (30% win, 20% NA, 50% loss) but it would pretty consistently eliminate a kamau or similar if you dedicated an entire order pool to it (10% per attempt of total destruction for the REM). Against anything weaker than a Kamau that would clear out board control pretty damn well
     
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  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    That saying still holds true in that circumstance. If you build a list without the correct tools that isn't the list's fault, that's on you for building it poorly.
     
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  6. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    They probably wouldn't, but post-rework MM LX ignores both benefits of Partial Cover.

    That said - If you want to kill Kamau with a linked Grunt, HMG Grunt in its good rangeband has slightly better chances than MM LX Sniper one. And, naturally, a Minuteman HMG in that link fares even better, inching into "acceptable" territory)
     
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  7. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    It seems like many people, across games and genres, have particular models/profiles that they like. And they should! That’s why we play with pretend soldiers to begin with. Buuuut, if I’m building a list that I want to win with, I start with the profiles that I need to accomplish the task at hand. Then I throw in the models I love, if I can.

    If I’m playing just for fun, I’ll take sub optimal profiles simply because they are fun.

    That said, if you build a list because you’re building to your personal tastes instead of the mission, it’s not really fair to bebthat upset if it doesn’t work out for you.

    At this point I’m rambling...
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    More what I meant is why would a PanO player deploy in a way such that they're taking multiple aroa when they activate their Kamau sniper.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I see what you're saying, but what happens when you get the next thing that requires countering at the listbuilding stage with something completely different, and then the next? Then you've got warmahordes.
     
  10. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I see. I was inattentive and thought that was an answer to the post about MM LX math.

    Another argument there would be "why wouldn't Varuna pick off your Grunts one by one with something that isn't Kamau" =)
     
  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Warmahordes is principally M:tG style deck-building filtered through the prism of a miniatures game. Infinity is so much more execution-based, sometimes honestly to its detriment, that I can't see this ever being an issue. Meta cycles that occur as things arise, are adapted to, and recede, are good and healthy for having a varied play experience over time.

    (Disclosure: I played warmahordes for about a decade, including competing at the World Team Champs. It was a great time, but I wouldn't go back. Infinity has its warts but I love it to bits, and one of the reasons why is that the overwhelming majority of the time, counterplay to a new meta trend is at the execution rather than list construction level, as multiple people have noted over the course of the thread.)
     
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  12. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty loquacious way to say: "It's not your list, it's you." :)
     
  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I did the WM/H thing for a long time as well, and similarly agree that Infinity is still a far, far cry from WM/H as a system. As @RobertShepherd mentioned, Infinity is still very about tabletop execution.

    One point I haven't seen yet is that the Kamau MSV2 actually re-emphasizes mechanics that weren't very popular before the Kamau was put on the table. I say re-emphasize, because mechanics like White Noise, Nimbus, Coordinated Shooting, and Terrain rules (specifically Saturation) have been around for a long time, but weren't perceived as particularly popular or helpful. With virtually all of these rules, the prevailing attitude was "why would I bother, when I can just use an HMG instead."

    With the popularity of the Kamau, as well as the proliferation of other MSV2 linked Snipers, these gameplay elements are suddenly useful again. Players do want to bother with them.

    As a result, the competitive scene here has evolved to match. SMG Bounty Hunters aren't referred to as SMG Bounty Hunters anymore... They're Akrylat Kannon Bounty Hunters, because their coordinated adhesive shot absolutely wrecks Kamau, and that's become the most useful combat element of that profile. Forests and their corresponding Saturation Zones are making a more regular appearance, and players are planning their fire lanes around those forests because they're such an effective tool vs linked AROs. Speculative Fire is used more, HD+ and Hackers with White Noise are suddenly a hot commodity, and REMs with supportware and engineers are ready to slog it out with ARO pieces. These are all indicators of a meta evolving to keep pace with competitive demands.
     
  14. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Of course not, they're just called Bounty Hunters, everyone knows which loadout is used :)
     
  15. Kreslack

    Kreslack See you Space Cowboy...

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    I find white noise not as useful against the kamau. It can help reposition a bit. (But also has much higher risk of failure and restrictive placement conditions.) But the Kamau's SSL2 makes attacking from it pointless unless you got a bead on another link member.
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    That's pretty much it, it allows you to ignoreit so you don't have to interact with it.

    If you are getting as bead on another member thanks to the WN it's either an Orc which isn't going to be fun to engage, or they screwed up and left Angus standing around waving at everyone.
     
  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    or youve blocked the line covered by the Kamau enough that achillies or Morlocks can run into the VIRD backline via a path blocked by terrain
     
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  18. RasPuto

    RasPuto Active Member

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    I'm still new to the game, may I ask what a "20 orders Galwegians list" look like?

    Wallace as LT, I imagine.
     
  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    There's a really useful interaction, made possible by White Noise, that neither of you are seeing.

    Hint: it can be pulled off by a link team, a coordinated order, or a unit with g:synch/Koalas/Madtraps...
     
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  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Not necessarily. You can use it to pull 'hsien trick' by forcing the Kamau to ARO against a less valuable element.

    Edit: dammit ninja'd by Barakiel. :P
     
    #80 RobertShepherd, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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