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Varuna deforms the meta pretty intensely

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Hecaton, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    A lot of those solutions you're providing are kind of bad (spec fire, DTW without a way to approach, etc). Moreover, if a Kamau sniper is covering 2/3 of the objectives on the table, you need to fight it to stand a chance.

    I'd like to see something that forced Varuna players to learn new tactics; as of now, brain-dead, passive defensive play is how they work. I've never seen a Varuna list without the Kamau sniper.
     
  2. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
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    if you go second take cover, if you go first shoot with lots of lead... 5 shots of hmg or spitfire will do great!

    remeber you have jump troops and else.
     
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  3. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    "New things that warp the meta so much they force every faction to tailor their lists so they have a chance vs a single troop are good things"

    But when GW does it they are the devil

    And "shoot with lots of lead" probably means you will be losing not only Orders but more points that's the Kamau is worth with 0 Order expenditure on PanO's side
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's the specific issue, is that it basically has to be confronted in the listbuilding stage. Sometimes there's very little outplaying that can happen.

    I think, strictly speaking, OSS and Vanilla ALEPH are more powerful than Varuna, but unlike Varuna they do not need lists tailored.
     
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  5. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    Don't throw out the baby with the dishwater.

    As someone who's been playing Varuna exclusively for the last year, I'd suggest that it's not Varuna that's brain-dead and passive but the players in your meta.

    There are a tonne of fun aggressive/proactive pieces in Varuna that don't start with Ka- and end with -niper: Echo Bravos, Crocmen, Bulleteers, Cutters...

    I've also been testing lists without the Sniper (ranging from swapping it out for an ORC feurbach/Clipper through to ditching the Fusilier link entirely), as my meta has evolved multiple solutions to it. So, while it's not dead weight (yet) I still have to have a Plan B for when my opponent either kills, neutralises or ignores it and sometimes that Plan B is 'don't take the Kamau at all'.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Maybe, but I'm guessing those lists are strictly worse, even if they are more interesting.
     
  7. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    YMMV, if you're playing in a meta that has adapted to the Kamau Sniper then her inclusion doesn't automatically make the list better.

    Now, if you put a gun to my head and told me to take a Varuna pairing to Interplanetario and win...yeah, I'd most likely take a Kamau Sniper in at least one list...(I'd also be dead, as I wouldn't win Interplanetario...for many good reasons).

    Can Ariadna beat a Kamau sniper? Probably, just don't try and do it by winning an honest fight.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The question is, though, how much can a theoretical dishonest fight get you? Infiltrating Grunts can do the trick, especially if you go first. Potentially a Foxtrot or Hardcase. But none of your warbands really help. It's a pretty massive constraint to list building that no other faction really applies.
     
  9. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    I mean, IA has the Haidao MSV2 linked sniper, who trades Mimetism for a second wound. That's a similar if not congruent problem to solve.

    Starco, Druze, Ikari, Dashat, and Spiral Corps can all slap down a linked Brawler MSV2 Sniper (which is a shitty Kamau but it still has the primary traits of: 6th Sense, BS 15+, Burst 2 MSV2 Multi-Sniper).

    QK can have a Djanbazan linked (not a Multi-sniper, though).

    It's a hard problem for Ariadna to solve and the Kamau is certainly the high-water mark for that particular problem but I'd hesitate to say that 'no other faction' asks the question: "How are you going to deal with my linked MSV2 sniper?"
     
  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Gotta admit, this is the first time Ive seen anyone advocate that USARF doesnt use Grunt Infiltrating HFTs, Desperado's with chain rifles and, Hardcases with Rifles and LSGs, and Van Zant as well as Airborne rangers. All of which are the tools I suggested for either taking out the Kamau MSR, or for picking apart its support network (see Airborne rangers/VZ)

    The only new one in that list is the linked Minutemen AP HMG, admittedly not my favourite solution, but B5 on 13s (5-man link) relative to 2 shots on 16 will win for the AP HMG most of the time. It just can go bad for you on occasion, which is why I reach for tools listed above where the tradeoff is far less of an issue, or tools like spec fire where there is absolutely no risk to my attack piece and I can just repeat the process until success.

    As to the Spec Firing Foxtrot. well the thing is, how bad do you want the kamau dead? enough to put 5-7 orders into it? because spec firing on 8s vs the Kamaus dodge on 11s gives you 17% odds of dropping the Kamau each shot. Given the claim that it is practically unsolvable for USARF I find it pretty hilarious that something which equates to a 1 in 5 shot of dropping the opponents most dangerous weapon is so readily disregarded.

    Additionally that spec fire becomes so much more valuable if you are also clipping just 1 additional opponent with the template, and allows you to follow up the Unc state with a kill on either any Trauma docs in the area or the Kamau itself.

    The thing with VIRD is once its units take a hit, odds are that they are going down, so any means of forcing ARM rolls on them with minimal exposure of your own troops will pay off, if you can follow that up with the abillity to push warbands and models that are dangerous in close into the lines of the VIRD player then you are well on your way to winning. And USARFs tools are more than able to slip into the VIRD lines with the ready access to stealth on their attack pieces allowing them to disregard Jammer screens for the most part.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Tailor your list?

    No mate, the tools above are general stock for a faction like USARF, as stated above theres nothing at all strange or "out of meta" about taking Grunt HFTs, Hardcases, Airborne rangers and desperaods. the difference isnt in the tools you bring (outside one or two tweak pieces like hte foxtrot LGL) its in the approach to dealing with the kamau and how you use those tools, and thats why its a good thing.

    You need surprisingly little list tailoring for dealing with a Kamau, what you do need however is flexibillity of thinking along with forethought in how you use your tools as well as a different approach to the faction as a whole.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The Mimetism on top of it, combined with the slightly higher BS, shifts the math significantly. For a Brawler, for example, I can apply a Blackjack, Grunt HMG in a fireteam, solo Minuteman HMG, whatever. Against a Kamau the options are very constrained.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Varuna sucks vs active turn camo markers, I don't understand why people don't understand this. Their Helots aren't going to drop their camo to ARO with a Discover, they have little to no existing options for Minelayers. Their Zulu Cobra are prone and there cannot Discover nor Jam against a marker state in ARO. I don't understand why people never exploit this. I've taking so many trips to the Varuna backline with my Zhencha or Malignos with impunity, and once you're there you should be easily able to drop 1 or 2 Fusiliers and then you can proceed to pick apart the Kamau from a distance.
    Jesus, you have a Foxtrot Boarding Shotgun option. Back when I used to play USARF, I never left home without him (or should I say her).
     
    #33 Zewrath, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This I strongly disagree with.
     
  15. Foxep

    Foxep Tropical Vet
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    My personal experience was the same as Daboarder.

    Im playing a 400 points (2 groups max) League with Usarf and won by now 3/4 games, 2 of them against Varuna. In both games my rivals took a hell of core link, the first one took 3 Kamau snipers and 1 heavy rocket launcher with the fusilier lieutenant as a link, the second one took 2 kamau snipers with fusiliers.

    In both games i used a minutemen link with the ap hmg and threw him against the kamaus one by one, the hardest roll is the first one, if you get past the 5 rolls at 13s against the 2 at 16s the rest gets easier. I always had a 112 next to the minutemen in case shit happened, and once it happened and i managed to pass my medic roll and shoot again, taking him down. So, in 2 games i took down 5 Kamau Snipers xD

    Another good solution once the first man in the link was down was the chain rifle and heavy pistol devil-dog, going from cover to cover, and dodging at 16s +total immunity and Arm4 you are most likely to get into chain rifle range and put the enemy into choosing between shooting back (in which you use chain rifle) or dodging (In which you use the pistol)

    Molotok Maverick also is a good tool to take down the link once the first man is out, but i prefer gambling with my minutemen. If it doesnt work i would take the hardcase solution of looking for a fusilier and trying to take him down with the shotgun.

    Hope it helps. This week i have the last game of the league, we are the possible league winners and its Varuna again xD So i guess i will have a lot of Usarf vs Varuna experience to share.
     
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  16. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Practically every faction forum has a thread on how to deal with the Kamau and not about any other troop, but it's not warping the meta, it's just we don't know how to play. Thanks @daboarder for enlightening us. (also, 17% is 1 out of 6, not out of 5, that's 20%, of course you already knew that but preferred to use the wrong number so your argument looked better)
     
  17. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    The +4 BS swing doesn't matter at all, they are the same kind of troop. Except, you know, that +4, but that doesn't matter.
     
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  18. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    How many of the people crying "VIRD OP!!" here have actually won an ITS tourney?
     
  19. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    How many of the people crying "Kamau are OK!!!" here have actually won an ITS tourney?
     
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  20. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Kamau is fine, and I've won several

    I really think things are being blown out of proportion here. I have never found a "sniper tower" link that couldn't be dealt with. We have so many options it's ridiculous, "Just throw dice at it" being the simplest yet most effective.

    Solutions have been given, plenty of them