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Varuna deforms the meta pretty intensely

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Hecaton, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    To be fair I think @RobertShepherd read the rule to mean what @Ayadan is saying some time ago when I played him (and the TO agreed with him). They're both very smart people, with excellent english comprehension, so it seems it's quite possible to read it that way. Maybe something to note for clearer re-phrasing in N4?
     
    oldGregg, Ayadan and ijw like this.
  2. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Fair enough, this is the first time I've come across it being read that way.
     
    Hachiman Taro likes this.
  3. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, gonna throw my hat in on this one, and i'm a native English speaker. I read "closest edge" to mean "closest point." Also, I think that clarifying it so that it reads "within the 180 degrees of arc closest to you" is...bulky. I think "closest visible point" is much cleaner and would be better from a rules perspective.
     
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  4. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    I mean you have a minuteman AP HMG as a point man (obviously you do some work to make the table safe first - moving the minuteman out without exposing the snipers to start with etc.), presumably with other elements on the field that can put down smoke to block helot sightlines, or make discover rolls - they're deploying in the enemy deployment zone after all, so they don't really have the range to contest an AP HMG from across the entire table.

    It doesn't matter that much if minuteman takes out the kamau, it's unlikely to fully kill him due to shock immunity so you can doctor him later. If the Kamau does decide to shoot a grunt instead of dodging than that's good for the grunt's controlling player, as the other two grunts have a 61% chance of knocking the kamau unconscious each and the one being shot has a 26% chance of doing it - together that makes for a 89% knock it down. This isn't even taking into account the chance of the minuteman killing it.

    I'm not saying it's not an expensive option - but most of the time you will be able to do it with one coordinated order and at most two models killed. For your trouble you have killed your opponent's core link, the lynchpin of his entire defensive game (which is what Varuna relies on), and you still have some snipers in your deployment zone to waste your opponent's orders. The fact of the matter is that you're playing Ariadna, you have incredible camo and midline fighters to do the work from here on out, your opponent needs the Kamau team much more than you need your core team.

    I wasn't trying to claim you were saying that - you said you didn't like 4 grunt snipers as a solution, and I agree with you, so I was providing a better way of doing it. Sorry if it came out wrong.
     
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  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I think the confusion probably comes from the fact that technically a circle only has one edge that goes all the way around. So 'closest edge' reads to some people most fairly as 'closest part of the edge' which functionally could be taken as the same as 'closest point on the edge'. And I couldn't say that is a wrong reading of the words, though we know it's not the correct way to read the rule.

    Fair enough. As described it didn't seem that practical to me. But the general ideas of designing to take advantage of and using coordinated orders where applicable does, as does making the otherwise best deployment place for a Kamau a much more fraught choice with the threat of overwhelming firepower. So it's probably not worth sweating the exact details.

    Possibly my tone was a bit sharp as well (my daughter had me up at 2am with nightmares) and if so I apologise.
     
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  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Clearly, I have totally misread your post, especially re-reading it.
    My apologies.
     
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  7. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    You seemed perfectly polite to me, don't worry about it.
     
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  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    It was a specifically rediculous answer to specific demands getting more rediculous as answers were provided.

    The criteria was something that was high reliability regardless of the orders spent getting there. This does it.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The whole thread is in a context of it necessitating specific list building, however. 4 snipers is definitely forcing you to change your list in case you run into one particular faction.
     
  10. Nixed86

    Nixed86 New Member

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    Would you mind expanding a little upon that? I'm a newer player and all I really know is the Grunt Sniper Defensive Fireteam™ for playing defense.
     
  11. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I am just happy we have a solid forming meta.
    Also I will say figuring out how to deal with the sniper has made me a better player.
     
    TheDiceAbide likes this.
  12. Callum

    Callum Member

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    Certainly. As a minor caveat I have been away from my army since the new update dropped and so cant comment on the new link teams. These ideas were formed in discussion and play against @Tourniquet and @Triumph, both big believers in soft aro and board control.

    In infinity the objective of the defence and ARO is not to kill our opponents troops; it is to make them waste as many orders as possible. Grunt towers of death can do that but in my experience they can only normally do it in one maybe two places. This can be good on certain table or missions but I have found that following is a more flexible and globally applicable system.

    The defense set up of USARF varies obviously between going first and second.If I take or am given first turn i have found it very easy to put the opponent on the back foot by bringing the fight to them and aggressively murder order pools or key pieces as the table/ tactical situation demands.

    When going second the biggest part of the defense screen theory is that we as USARF is that we can put ten camo tokens across the middle of the field. Now while not as impressive as what our TAK brethren can achieve (Streloks were a mistake) it can not be underestimated the mental load a large collection of camo tokens achieves even against opponents that have played you for two year.

    While our individual camo units are not exceptionally scary the nature of vis mods and forward deployment requires that our opponents attempt to clear some if not all of this camo screen less the survivors flank and favorably engage their advancing units or counterstrike at their order pool. Given each camo token requires a minimum of two orders for regular troops to deal I have found the defense screen more then capable of soaking a huge amount of an opponents first turn.

    Callum's Number One of Midfield Camo in the reactive turn: Always force your opponent to discover you. Make them take your camo state.

    The single exception if your opponent is dumb enough to walk their whole link in front of a shotgun murder hobo.

    An important aside, sensor can speed up the discovery of these camo units but excepting the Kanren minelayer the elements of a sensor sweep are required to advance from the dz using orders which is still a win for us. These advancing sensors also can not advance without first dealing with our other defense unit, the Inferior Infiltrating Grunt (I do feel like a little bit broken record).

    II Grunts require a deal of finesse and luck(stupid dice) to use and vary greatly in their application in going first (see my previous post) and going second. Going second you must decide how and where you are going to deploy these buggers to maximally slow them down the opponent.

    Against more elite armies I have found it best to tuck them into key corridors of advancement where they are hard to engage at long range and can make advancing troops face down heavy flamethrowers. This also makes it much harder for link teams to advance into the midfield and again wastes orders.

    Against armies with more impetuous troops this deployment is less effective but still viable. What we can also do is punish any poor deployment on our opponents behalf. It is my experience that high model count armies struggle to conceal all their troops in total cover from oblique angles close to the edge of their DZ. If we drop a grunt in a position to see a collection of impetuous models and and their comrades we can force from our opponent to burn orders stopping their impetuous troops from getting their comrades roasted.

    Side note: My personal best for this was in a game against @Tourniquet after TJC dropped. I was lamenting that counter intelligence was silly skill to be open to a 17 order nomads list for 12 points. Due to some sloppy placement of his morloks I landed a grunt that forced him to spend five regular orders stopping his morloks from getting everyone incinerating. Not bad for 11 points but I have not been allowed to complain since.

    Finally for Close Quarter Defense of the DZ my strategy relies on grunt links, Desparadoes and the odd Blackjack DEP. My grunt link tend to be lt, specialists and a hmg( and now probably a wildcard or two). The less necessary elements are often hung out to watch <16" firelanes to slow down attackers (always bring a spare grunt or two).

    With Desparadoes we can abuse the sixth sense rule and like a budget Chassuer stick them near corners and delay our AROs against advancing enemies (this also works with linked grunt flamers). This can force trades and waste orders of anything that gets to close too our DZ for comfort.

    Hope this helps give you some ideas as to how to play with what I consider to be our most fun toys
     
  13. Nixed86

    Nixed86 New Member

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    Thanks for the ton of detail! That's all very helpful and I see what you mean about the fun of running 3 Hardcases!

    I admittedly haven't dabbled with much of the II Grunts, Hardcases, or Desperadoes in my few games so far, and I can't help but feel like I'm doing myself a disservice by not using as many of USARF's key (and deadly) gimmicks as the match may call for.

    This entire thread's been great to read, since my local group includes a Varuna player.
     
    Hachiman Taro likes this.