Well the update certainly shifted things around. Mid 2018 I'd have said SAA is the strongest part if PanO. Nowadays I'm not sure if I'd rank them 2nd or 3rd after Varuna and NCA. MO took a nosedive into the dumpster (unfortunately). NCA is suddenly able to field a great AHD that solves a bunch of problems I didn't even know it had. Vanilla gained a bunch of interesting options to build lists around. For starters it gained access to low SWC utility choices like Zulu Cobra and Echo Bravo, a Helot is an excellent warm body and last but not least the new Seraph HMG in Vanilla doesn't look like much but is a tactical nightmare to prepare for. The game altogether has shifted a lot in the past year. Mixed Fireteams are everywhere, Mobility Skills and Profiles that have them have been handed out like candy. Table layouts haven't really adjusted to compensate, thus C+ or Superjump can be all that is required to bring something from ok to outright ridiculous. The mentioned changes benefit PanO's heavy hitters which now can fit into more flexible and deadly lists. If all the small improvements add up to the powerlevel of Vanilla Ariadna, Nomads or Aleph is another question, but it's certainly gonna be interesting to figure out.
Dunno if I'm the resident vanilla PanO player, but I certainly prefer vanilla to any of the sectorials. I always feel like I'm losing on something good that I love. Here's why I play it: Joan Lt. without losing Nisse, Croc Man or Fusiliers Tikbalang without losing Nisse, Croc Man or Fusiliers Nisse not being in any sectorial (though Varuna has Kamau Sniper) Authorized Bounty Hunter Sniper (I like having two snipers withoug playing 3 SWC for both) and Krakot Sepulchre, Swiss or Bulleteer don't lose much from not being in a sectorial I wasn't going to play more than 2 Auxilia anyway, that AVA is good enough for me (though only one Helot is mediocre) The knights I tend to play don't have Frenzy, with the exception of Joan; also until recently they were awful in MO JOTUM On the other hand I am hardcore about playing Corregidor rather than vanilla Nomads so I may be just a contrarian.
I don´t open the forum a couple of days (swamped by work) and you guys dice my beloved Vainilla like this. Not only it is stronger that most people give it credit for, but the level of buff it got from the last update is over the roof.
Advantages of PanO Vainilla, some of them really counter intuitive. Orders: yea, orders, for 66 points (Joan+Techbee+warcore+HRL Helot) you get effective 8 orders and a 14 order combat group, you have to practice a lot to know when and how to use constant coordinates to make it effective, but once you learn its really good. Bang for the buck: an HMG Aquila is terrifying, but you can get 2 HMG Nisses for a token 6 more points. Thats an extra order, thats 2 FD1 HMG to put in different sides of the table that gives you angles on almost anything not in complete cover for one order of move+shoot. Spread: more or less the above example, but compare to a link instead of an Aquila, Vainilla doesn't play like a rock, its sand, individual units that get to push and push against a weak point that was much easy to get because the opponent list is not stopping one giant vector but has to stop a lot of medium/big once from different angles. Non spam selection: you dont get to have 3 ZC KHD, but you can get one of them and a Hexa, you dont get to play 4 Crocman, but you have 2 of them, konstantinos, a Locust and the KohS to play. There are some AVA1 that can be higher, but its really not that bad, we got some redundancy now. AD: before if you wanted to play with AD it was NCA or bust, enter the Echo Bravo, but it only enters if you play VIRD or Vainilla, the rest can watch from the sidelines. Points Heavy units: because of point N°1 (orders) normally you can spend much more in each elite unit to finish the team. TAG´s: all of them. Regular Minelayers and Auxila together: dont laugh, they save lives, specially now that you can mix a Helot with the mines. and more, so much more (i love Joan´s sectorial) Edit: the Crocman is the best infiltrator in the god damn game and complements awesome with the multiple long range vectors of vainilla
2 different things my dude. those are cheap specialist with short range daka, the Crocman is a Daka toolbox capable of objectives. Every faction has the same TO infiltrators that comes from the same template with a small difference to give it faction character, those are the ones more easily comparable (Crocman FO, Ninja KHD, Tuareg Doc+, Spekter AHD, Malignos FO, Dasyu FO and Clipsos FO). You dont give enough credit to the great gift that is the X-visor in the Crocman (that also work for FO rolls). We have some of the best long range FtF platforms (HMG Nisses in particular go around most traditional midfield defenses/aro) that makes going to full cover a real option for the enemy. To dig them out you need to deal with mines, direct templates, order spending navigating there and then the chance that this is just a piece trade. The Crocman gets to do the more traditional infiltrator roles, but also gets to flank from the other side of the board, without loosing the anything for a TO infiltrator (something the Chausseur doesnt pay) you get 2 distinct advantages, long range flanking and absolute suppression. The ability to shoot without negative mods 80cm away is awesome when you dont loose cqb capabilities, dont pay SWC, and have all the bonuses to get the flank shot, mostly against guys that will be shooting at -12 and doesnt know were your coming from or sometimes doesnt expect it at all. And the suppression, a Crocman in suppression can make a big chunk of the army unable to come out of the DZ or needing to spend lots of orders to bring someone with better chances. starting mid table and having mid table range suppression mod 0 with ddo and cover can be devastating. Then again this is just my rambleing, i like the "tool for every range" feel and possibility to snipe some BSG/combi link member from strange angles without too much drama and easy access to that kind of situation, its just my style. I get that its not for everyone and maybe for you cheaper is better, but for me is one of the most complete units in the game and you get returns for every point you pay.
My beloved Hospitaller Doctor got cheaper and now has a DA CCW on the multi rifle version, still one of the best all around shooty, survivable, specialist, CC powerhouses in the game. Which is even more useful in a faction that traditionally lacks generalists. He was already a fixture of my Vanilla lists.
Fair is fair, the Daofei es overall much better, but also costs SWC, much more expensive (part of why i like the Crocman more than the Dasyu) and doesnt have TO witch is a big part of how i use them (i think that is why he counts as a HI instead of a SK). But yea, i was killing for something like that in Varuna in a character package. (the Zencha is not TO also and has much shorter ranges) With that in mind, whats your opinion of the KotHS? almost as forward starting, same primary weapon, similar cost, both can do some mind games (because where is a Daofei there also is a Guilang), they seem comparable.
Shorter ranges matter less when you're infiltrating. But they do still matter. I end up using them very differently, so I don't feel like I can give a good comparison.
When I've played Yu Jing I've used the Daofei quite extensively, and always loved it. For me the key difference between it and the KotHS is Camo vs Holo. The former is stronger as a gunfighting aid, but the latter has greater utility (especially for clearing mines and deployables), which can actually make the KotHS that much stronger in the midfield. Looking at both in the context of Vanilla (because the KotHS probably ends up having a different role in MO) the Daofei ends up being the more consistently effective Alpha attack piece, while the KotHS is better in the midfield "heavy skirmisher" role.
I agree with the suppression fire part but not with the shooting from 80cm away The croc man is infiltrated, if you often use it to shoot without being in your good range then you are doing something wrong. I have a very aggressive playstyle relying a lot on midfield pieces and don't have any problem staying in my good range while flanking, so I don't have much use for the x-visor for it. If you are looking for flanking pieces, Croc man are good but other armies have pieces I find better for a similar cost : prowler spitfire (better weapon, can do more classified), dasyus (lose X-Visor for a second Wo)
But thats exactly how i make it shine!! Coming out of nowhere (TO instead of Camo) and shooting from angles that are not covered or are completely on the back side far far away. The bigger the area you can threat the bigger the possibilities to get an angle/corner that the enemy didn't foresee, the best work they did for me is always outside of 40cm, they get to position without resistance or wasted orders and get killer shots no one expected. Try it, for real shooting at that range is not a bug here, its the feature, everyone flanks from the same building, you can flank effectively from the other side of the table. Of course the Spitfire is better than a Xvisor combi, no one can discus that, but what i´m trying to say is that the overall unit doesn't do the same roll, the prowler telegraph his position with camo so yo can leave mines or go hunt it, its slower to flank, doesnt bring mines to bug down the enemy, will take 1/3 of your SWC. Its a great platform to start with the spitfire in the good range, but mostly will alpha straight, dont see him pooling the same kind of surprise flanks or having the toolbox the crocman has (not even talking of the minelayer option). NWI is very very good (mines waste orders but wont kill him), but i rate that Xvisor much higher than most (not the Xvisor but THIS Xvisor), i actually like a lot the direct template out of TO he can pull. Dasyu and Tuareg are the great contenders, never play them and never saw them being play trying to do what i do with the Croc, so i favor the Croc more because of opinion that of experience. (lets go back to the Vainilla discussion instead of the Croc, look at my Avatar/signature/status, he gave me too much happiness and won me too many games, wont surrender him that easily)
Now that you mention it, between the new KotHS, the dropbear Locust, infiltration Konstantinos, Crocman and the ever present Peacemaker..... we actually have a lot of very different toolboxes to put in directly in the midfield. We dont get the cheap nomad/ariadna kind of options, but it feels like we have one really good option for every roll.
Yeah, one of my Vanilla experiments over the last year was doing exactly that, throwing EVERYTHING at the midfield and just experimenting with how it worked out. It was... interesting. Basically I ended up feeling like too much of it was too expensive for what it was doing, but when it worked it REALLY worked (largely because people didn't expect three Hidden Deployment Infiltrators while moving to kill Koni, the Locust or the Peacemaker).
