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Vanilla G:Marionette Fireteams?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by DFW Ike, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    Hello CB,

    How does G:Marionette work in Vanilla?

    By the wording of the Fireteam rules, a trooper must be part of a sectorial army to join a Fireteam: core. This means the puppets cannot join the Troupe, and will enter the "disconnected" state after deployment.

    Or, do they "disconnect" one at a time, so you are left with one puppet (and the puppetmaster) who is still active even though the Troupe is ended?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Marionette can never join any type of Fireteam, in Vanilla or Sectorial (page 5) :

    G: MARIONETTE, COORDINATED ORDER AND
    FIRETEAMS
    G: Marionette troopers and their Controller cannot be part of
    a Coordinated Order nor be a member of any type of Fireteam,
    unless specified otherwise.​

    Also, the Troupe doesn't count toward the player limit of FT:Core. I think they don't join a FT:Core but they join a Troupe (which the skill intro text refers as a team called Troupe not as a fireteam called Troupe). So they are valid in Vanilla. Although they are a Troupe, the skill effect bullets often refer to applying rule related to FT:Core. It seems to be multiple specific portion of it, not the rule in its entirety.
     
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I'm thinking of this as somewhat similar to Antipode or Uberfall, just more explicitly using 3 man fireteam rules as a direct comparison.
     
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  4. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    you are missing the "unless specified otherwise" part of the quote you provided: the Troupe is the Fireteam that is "specified".

    Since we have two bullets pointing to the fact that this is, in fact, a Fireteam: core:

    • » The members of a Troupe will apply the rules for aFireteam: Core of two or three members, depending on their number.
    and
    » The presence of a Troupe of G: Marionette troopers doesn’t count towards the player’s limit of a single Fireteam: Core on the game table.

    This is clearly a Fireteam. It doesn't give you the ability to create one in Vanilla. Even having the Haris skill, or the Duo skill, or the Enomotarchos skill lets you create a Fireteam in vanilla, even though it is more heavily implied and stated than in this new Marionette skill.
    (for example, Enomotarchos says:
    • Fireteam: Enomotarchos allows players to compose two, three, or four member Fireteams
    Still doesn't create a Fireteam in Vanilla, since a prerequisite of being in a Fireteam (or a Duo, or a Haris, or an Enomotarchos, Or a Troupe) you also need to be part of a sectorial army.
     
  5. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    No, it is an Obligatory Automatic Skill that BEHAVES like a Fireteam.
     
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  6. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    But no bullet specifies that it can join a FT:Core, it only say it can join a Troupe team. While you can infer they are synonymous there is no bullet that actually says a Troupe team is a Fireteam and that joining the Troupe means joining a Fireteam.
     
  7. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Not only does it not have said bullet point, I would pose that they are actually explicitly NOT the same thing, just similar in effects.
     
  8. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    So if it behaves like a Fireteam, you cannot form it in vanilla.

    it can only join a Troupe team. This falls under the helper text that you quoted here:
    G: MARIONETTE, COORDINATED ORDER AND
    FIRETEAMS
    G: Marionette troopers and their Controller cannot be part of
    a Coordinated Order nor be a member of any type of Fireteam,
    unless specified otherwise.

    bolding the important bit. The "specified otherwise" is referring to the following:

    This is the part of the rules that says its a Fireteam and you need to apply the Fireteam rules:

    » The members of a Troupe will apply the rules for aFireteam: Core of two or three members, depending on their number.
    To do so, a Troupe is identified by the Troupe Leader Marker (TROUPE LEADER), equivalent to the Team Leader from the Fireteam rules.

    The Controller doesn’t belong to the Troupe and won’t be taken into consideration when applying the Fireteam rules.

    You still need to apply the Fireteam rules. The Fireteam rules state that you cannot have a core Fireteam in a vanilla army. Ergo, you cannot have a Fireteam: Troupe in a vanilla army.
     
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  9. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    also, if its explicitly NOT a Fireteam, how does Number 2 work?
     
  10. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    I think puppets have number 2 because it would break the rules if they didn't. If you killed the troupe leader, that would normally "break the fire team". If puppet breaks from the troupe, its disconnected. It would be a rules mess.

    I think the confusion is they are explaining the Troupe "as a fire team", because the rules are similar and we already know fire team rules. But in essence, the Troupe is its own separate system.
     
  11. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    OK, even if it is TOTALLY A FIRETEAM, fireteam rules have this clause:
    • To use this rule, a player must field a Sectorial Army List, an Army List that specifies that Fireteams are available, or have a Special Skill, piece of Equipment or Hacking Program that allows its use.
    Marionette is most definitely a Special Skill.
     
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  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Fireteam: Duo is also a Special Skill. Are you proposing that I can form a fireteam Duo of Sekban outside of QK without an EVO Hacking Device?
     
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  13. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Yes.

    No.
     
  14. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Please point to the Special Skill that allows the holders of G:Marionette to form a fireteam then, because Fireteam: Duo contains that same clause you pointed to.

    FIRETEAM: DUO AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional
    REQUIREMENTS
    • The trooper possessing this Special Skill must belong to a Sectorial Army List, or have a Special Skill, piece of Equipment or Hacking Program that allows its use.
    • When used, the owner of this Special Skill must be part of that Fireteam: Duo.
     
  15. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Let's try this another way:

    Everywhere it says "apply the fireteam rules" for the marionette skill, it is referring to a specific chunk of fireteam rules.

    "The members of a Troupe will apply the rules for a Fireteam: Core of two or three members, depending on their number."

    Which Fireteam rules apply only to two or three members? The bonuses. Not the Sectorial/composition rules.

    "The Controller and the G: Marionette troopers grant a single ARO to each enemy trooper in LoF or ZoC. However, G: Marionette troopers will apply the rules for Fireteams when declaring that ARO"

    Apply the rules for Fireteams when declaring that ARO

    etc.
     
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  16. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    ergo, otherwise not.
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Guys this is really simple. Stop over thinking it. They act like a fireteam, but are not actually a fireteam. They are a Troupe.
     
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  18. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Right, so I was looking for the parallel to this rule.

    The above which you added later works for me.
     
  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Glad I could be of service.
     
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  20. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    thats the issue. If Troupe is not a Fireteam, then Number 2 and Expel would not work on them.

    However, @macfergusson mentioned above that G:Marrionette is indeed a special skill, and that would fulfill the clause he quoted:

    This means it CAN be a Fireteam in Vanilla. They just worded it super wonky (did they get a new translator or something for the rules?).
    If it IS a Fireteam in vanilla, then you get all the bonuses (burst, movement, Number 2) and all the penalties (ARO's in the active turn, Expel, etc).

    I did a quick look see of the other special skills that provide fire teams, and they all mention:
    Except for Triads, who don't have the "sectorial army list" clause. Since Marionette doesn't have the Sectorial Army List clause, you can do it in vanilla.

    Now, why didn't they just say "Troopers possessing this Special Skill MUST compose a Fireteam of up to three members during deployment"?
     
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