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Using smoke to protect against blast damage

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes to the first question. Usually expressed saying that they're all targets of the attack. ;)

    No to the second, there is only one LOF for the attack: between the attacker and main target.

    The template has its own LOF, but this is the template's LOF not the attack's LOF.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It needs clarification, certainly. But the guys and gals at CB are seemingly too busy deleting profiles from army to make the rules more coherent.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  3. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I'm pretty sure that 3rd Offensive is going to be a net increase to army profiles, but whatever. Can't please some people.

    Edit: My point was not to say anything about CB or the rules quality, but to maybe request that we agree amongst ourselves that it's unclear so that we can stop the highly circular argument that's been going on for the last several pages.
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Actually it's been useful: we've clearly narrowed down the agreement that the issue is whether it is the attack's LOF or the template's LOF that needs to be blocked.
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The template is an attack, however.
     
  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I'm strongly in the camp that the template's psuedo-lof from the blast focus can't be stopped via special dodge because it doesn't need actual LoF. If smoke were already present, it would have no effect on the ability of a template to hit the secondary target.

    I agree that it's ambiguous if a secondary target using smoke to block the attacker's LoF to the primary target could trigger a FtF, but I lean towards no.
     
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  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Or rather the Attacker is making an Attack against all the non-"initial valid targets" with the requirement of his template's blast focus needing lof to anyone else under it.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @toadchild templates are clearly intended to propagate through smoke by example, even though the rules imply the opposite. The whole matter of LoF/total cover needs some clarification.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, the attacker is also using the template to attack the primary target. Read the impact template rules again.
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Honestly, the question of who under a template is a "target" and is being "attacked" is not well written; one of the first questions that came up in N3 was if it was even legal to clip a camo marker with a template that had another (non-camo) model as the primary target, since it could be read as "targeting" the camo marker, which is illegal.
     
  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The DD is being targeted by an attack, an attack made by a Grenzer ML or whatever. Read the Impact Template Rules again.
    • Place the Template down when you declare the Attack to determine who is affected by that Attack, as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs.
    "Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed."

    Smoke can protect you against an Attack (which it is) that requires LoF (which it does) and a roll (same)

    The attacked DD must roll a ftf against the Grenzer. The Grenzer has the requirements of needing lof from his blast focus to the DD. If this is disrupted by a smoke grenade, the Grenzer has no lof between the Blast Focus and the Attack does not effect the DD.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    A missile launcher does not require LoF to secondary targets. The Grenzer can hit models that are behind total cover (relative to the firing position) or concealed by smoke as long as it has a clear shot on the primary target.
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    But not those who are behind total cover from the Blast Focus. A LoF requirement is present in the attack made against the DD.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, the Impact Template is a result of an attack.

    But even accepting your premise.

    You don't actually need LOF between the attacker and the blast focus for a valid attack with a circular Impact Template (q.f. Situations where the centre of the main target's base is out of LOF but the main target is inside LOF from the attacker). You need LOF between the attacker and the main target.

    Which means that if you need to block the LOF between the blast focus and the affected troopers then even the main target can't do it.

    So the debate comes down to:
    Can anybody block attacks with Circular Impact Template by blocking the LOF between the attacker and main target (this only protects themselves) or can nobody use Special Dodge to avoid attacks by Circular Impact Templates?
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar so you don't the the Grenzer needs LoF to the primary target to place the blast focus? Because that's a requirement of placing the template to affect a secondary target, and disruption of that LoF via a smoke grenade allows a secondary target with smoke grenades to protect itself.
     
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Basically what I'm saying is that where an Attack is made where LoF applies, and it does here, explicitly and undeniably, from the Focus, it can be disrupted by smoke.
     
  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    No, it is an attack. It's described, right there, as an Attack. And anyone hit by it with LoF is affected by the Attack. Not by the results of the Attack, explicitly, in writing, the Attack.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I disagree, as that's contradicted by the examples. The only LoF that can be disrupted succesfully with a smoke grenade is the one between the attacker and the primary target.
     
    #138 Hecaton, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Then how does the main target avoid the attack?
     
  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The main target requires lof to be drawn from the attacker directly to them. It is a different LoF requirement.
     
    toadchild likes this.
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