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Using smoke to protect against blast damage

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    Which won't work, as you can obscure LOF only to yourself (as was mentioned earlier, smoke dodge cannot defend allied troops). And because you cannot defend allied troop -> you cannot prevent impact template from landing -> you get hit by template.

    I saw your diagram ;) Good job. But still cannot agree because of reason above.
     
  2. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    By that logic, a response of BS attack with any BS weapon would not be a face to face if you were caught in a blast template. It's not about protecting the allied troop.
     
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  3. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    As written that is exactly how it works. There is no rule in the books/pdf/wiki/faq that says otherwise. At no point in the rules does it say you have to prevent the impact from landing. That is a fabrication (albeit a logical one) of interpretation. All Special Dodge says is that you have to obscure the LoF of the Attack. This is accomplished even though the template lands. Just like if the smoke thrower critted a BS attack (which smoke throwing is oddly enough) while the main (fabricated term for discussion purposes) target fails their shot and the attacker hits. THe situation plays out the exact same, because it is the exact same. all Special Dodge does is allow the FtF to factor in.

    Find a rule that states otherwise. Not an extrapolation or interpretation, but actual words on paper.
     
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Small point of contention: "main target" is used quite extensively in the rules, but also implies other "non-main targets".
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Agreed... well except you need to block the LOF of the enemy attack not the LOF between the DD and the attacker. ;)

    Edit: For it to be a FTF you both need to affect each other, you only affect an enemy with Smoke if you block the LOF of their BS Attack or if the Smoke template hits them. The result is you need to place the Template to block LOF from the attacker to the main target.

    We can see this in the Special Dodge rule (which while it has an awful name, has a name) if we make the second subject of the sentence clear throughout (Smoke is the first) subject:

    "Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those [enemy] Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and [the enemy attack's] LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed."
     
    #105 inane.imp, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Kind of looks to me that the DD can prevent the attack against him by throwing smoke to obscure the LoF of the Blast Focus to him, tbh, except it specifies scenery though I guess viz zones are scenery?

    Like, the blast focus is the LoF that matters. You place the template on the target, and now that's down. Everyone within lof under the template is now taking part in their own individual ftf rolls, doing whatever. The DD drops smoke on himself, potentially obscuring LoF from the attack being made from the Blast Focus. Ftf roll.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar No, the LoF that matters is from the attacker to the K-9.
     
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, the blast focus is not the LOF that matters. Otherwise the DD cannot block that LOF with Smoke even if he was the main target.

    The LOF that matters is the enemy attack's LOF (see my post above) ie. that between the attacker and the K-9.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    An enemy attack is being made against the DD, that requires lof, yes. The required lof to hit the DD is between the Blast Focus and the DD, and that is blocked by the smoke template.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, you also need LoF between the attacker and the blast focus, otherwise they couldn't shoot there. By your logic a model being shot at directly can't use a smoke grenade to protect itself by blocking the attacker's LoF.
     
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Lof is needed between the attacker and the initial valid target, otherwise the attack fails against that target if disrupted by it chucking smoke.

    LoF is needed betwixt the Blast Focus and anything under the template, otherwise the attack fails. So why can't the smoke disrupt there? Its doing exactly what it says in the Smoke rules relating to the part of the IT rules about the template, blast focus etc.
     
  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Basically once you place the template and the lof or lack thereof is established, AROs are declared. If you throw smoke and it stops lof from attacks being drawn that is a ftf. The K9 would need (if it could) to throw smoke against the ML trooper, because that's what is allowing the attack against it. The Blast Focus is nothing to the K9. But the only LoF that matters to the DD is the Blast Focus LoF, and if it disrupts that, the template doesn't hit him.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar yeah I don't think so.
     
  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    That's literally how it's written though.

    LoF is drawn from the Blast Focus to the DD. The LoF between the DD and literally anywhere else is 100% irrelevant, just like how the K9's only LoF that matters is too the ML guy. The only arbiter of whether the DD is hit by the template is, if under it and LoF is not fully blocked, it is hit.
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, the attack doesn't fail if there isn't LOF between between the blast focus and the DD. The DD is just unaffected. The only LOF that is necessary for the attack to proceed is between the attacker and the main target ie. the enemy attack's LOF.

    The LOF between the blast focus and the DD is not 'the enemy attack's LOF' but rather 'the enemy attack's template's LOF'.

    Literally this: Lof is needed between the attacker and the initial valid target, otherwise the attack fails against that target if disrupted by it chucking smoke.

    Edit: the FAQ makes it clear that this does not protect Troopers affected by the attack which aren't the Trooper throwing Smoke.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar if someone is the primary target of a template weapon, do you think they need to block LoF between the blast focus and them to avoid damage? If so, how do they do that? If not, how do they houdini themselves out of damage when you say LoF is not required to hit anything under the template?
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't work as the template ignores LoF. You need to block the attack.

    That said, the distinction is even more situational as most of the time the best place to drop the smoke template would be in a way that accomplishes both.
     
  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    When you place the template it may look like you're creating interactions between the different guys under it, but actually you're just creating several independent interactions between the initial shooter and the affected targets, yes?

    And therefore what you actually see is numerous attacks, all made against different targets, with independent LoF determination in each case, which can be independently ARO'd against and be independently successful or not.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar you didn't answer my question, presumably to avoid showing the holes in your logic.

    You're right that it's functionally creating many parallel attacks, but they all require LoF from the attacker to the blast focus inividually, and any given target can protect themselves (and themselves only) with a smoke grenade by disrupting that LoF. They also all hit everyone via the blast focus individually; the primary target is hit because they are in the template, not because they're the primary target.
     
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  20. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    So are we yet at the point where we can all agree that the wording is ambiguous and there's no definitive interaction spelled out?
     
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