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Using smoke to protect against blast damage

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I know we're three pages in, but I happen to [EDIT] disagree with Mahtamori.
    1 - Targeting the impact template requires a MAIN target to be in LOF
    2 - anyone else under the template once placed (over the MAIN target) is also considered a target of the attack regardless of whether they have LOF to the attacking model
    3 - targets of the attack may declare ARO's. The ARO's they have available different if they have LOF to the firing model or if they do not.
    4 - "secondary targets" (all those affected by the template, excluding the main target) do not have to be in LOF of the firing model to be affected by the template
    5 - for smoke dodge to work it must obscure LOF to the firing model in a meaningful way.

    because of points 4 and 5, smoke dodge would result in normal rolls - Normal for the firing model against the K9 main target, which if successful will also hit the Devil Dog regardless of the Devil Dog's success or failure. The Devil dog would also have a normal roll, smoke would go down based on its success and saves would be made if the attacking model successfully shot the K9.
     
    #61 clever handle, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  2. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    no mate

    you are making up rules you know that right?
     
  3. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    specifically which rules am I making up?
     
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  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    @Mahtamori covered it all mate, numerous times
     
  5. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    directly copied from the rules PDF:
    p36-37
    p111
    attacker needs LOF to the MAIN VALID TARGET - in the OP the K9 attached to the devil dog. The attacker does not need LOF to affect the Devil Dog with the template, thus attacking him as well. That is the rule that someone is making up here...
     
    #65 clever handle, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes? DDog is not trying to break LOF to the Blast Focus, he's trying to break LOF between K-9 and HRL, you know... to break LOF of the attack. It's the attack you need to interfere with in order to use Special Dodge, regardless if you're main target or not.

    Nothing I write is incompatible with what you write except your conclusion.
     
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  7. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    Which I don't understand if you agree that

    1. The attacking model does not require lof to the DD in order to affect it with an impact template attack
    2. For smoke dodge to work, the attack must require LOF between the attacking model and the target

    If you agree with both of those then smoke dodge can't be a f2f in this scenario

    If you're arguing that since the HRL shot requires LOF to A model and thus the criteria for smoke dodge is met... I would refer back to the template attack properties that mention scenery is required to create total cover, as well as several other game rules, that combine to show us that smoke is ineffective at stopping 'splash damage' from templates
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    That part is where you are making up rules
     
  9. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    Except that it is explicitly stated in the rules that I then provided?
     
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  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The part I bolded is not mate
     
  11. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    Last sentence of smoke dodge on page 111. I copied it above.
     
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  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What you are accused of making up is which LoF needs to be affected. As someone who was formerly in your camp, I can say that I was initially confused about where the smoke was said to go in order to elicit a FtF roll. Check my diagram on page 3.

    To be clear, the rules do not explicitly state which LoF needs to be blocked, but heavily imply that it's the LoF of the "enemy attack" (by using "their" in your quoted text). This would be the BS attack that generated the template in the first place.

    As @inane.imp pointed out, if it's - instead - always to the blast focus, then smoke dodging any impact template would be ineffective, no matter who was throwing the smoke.
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    doesnt say what you are reading it to say mate.

    As Sabin just said, your adding meaning thats not there
     
  14. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    Further, Sabins' response is incorrect as well - as LOF is only required to identify and select a main target, only the main target can counter the attack with a smoke dodge. Anyone caught in the blast as a target - but not the declared valid main target - can smoke dodge to protect themselves from be coming a
     
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  15. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    That is interpretation of the intent. The wording is straight forward. If the Smoke blocks the LOF of the Attack it will lead to Special Dodge. That would only affect the Smoke thrower though.

    The problem lies in trying to figure out if that is an intended situation or not and we simply do not have the information available to answer that until a ruling is made that the current situation is intended or if it was an unseen situation that needs to be FAQ'd. Until such FAQ/Ruling comes down it would be inline with the RAW to allow the Special Dodge to work.
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    given that Impact templates allow face to face rolls for secondary targets shooting at the firer. Im happy with the determinetion that its intended that the DD can respond to the hit with a F2F roll from its own BS attack
     
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  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Save that you aren’t blocking LoF of the Attack, but rather the Impact Template. Your Smoke Soecial Dodge won’t stop the Impact Template from being placed and affecting you.

    Beyond that, inthe examples under Impact Templates, everything outside of the primary target lacks LoF and has to Dodge at PH-3, which would also preclude a Smoke Special Dodge.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by this? In my diagram (which I'm assuming everyone has looked at by this point), it clearly shows that the smoke thrower IS blocking LoF to the attack in order to trigger a FtF. No one is suggesting (as I first thought) that you are attempting to block the LoF of the blast focus with the smoke.
     
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  20. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The point daboarder is making, somewhat in eloquently, is that the rules do not support the interpretation that LoF is drawn from the blast focus at all. Therefore the only LoF relevant to whether smoke dodge is legal is the LoF to the main target.

    The impact template rules never make reference to "LoF" being drawn from the blast focus. Therefore the interpretation that the impact template attack "does not require LoF" is a fabricated one.

    @A Mão Esquerda this is very different to a speculative attack because the attack explicitly doesn't require LoF. So of course you can't smoke dodge it. Theres no feasible way for the smoke throw to block the LoF of a spec attack.
     
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