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Using smoke to protect against blast damage

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does (Never played N2 so I don't have any "old reference")

    If the DD is the primary target : the devil dog is the target of a BS attack. Having a LoF on a BS attack target is necessary (per BS attack requirement). LoF obligatory => Smoke dodge allowed to have an opposed roll against the BS attack
    If the DD is a secondary target : If you read the wiki page of impact template, it's told the target are "affected by the attack". It's clearly said that a LoF to the attacker is not necessary. => No LoF needed => No smoke dodge
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Prove it. Using rules. That LOF for the HRL is not required to declare BS Attack.
     
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  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Don't need : I said the opposite

    But I can repeat :

    You declare a BS attack only against your main target. LoF necessary

    The other are affected by your template not the target of a BS attack : no LoF necessary
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then you admit you don't have a point. You made a statement, but you didn't back it up.

    Keep in mind, the Area of Effect rules, which is what you're reading, also apply equally to the main valid target. You are arguing that the main target can't use Special Dodge against a HRL (or other Impact Template).
     
  5. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Because you say so ?
    BS attack needing LoF is a statement of the rule (The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF.).

    Smoke blocking BS attack with roll is also a statement ("Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll"). => Smoke work against all BS attack that make a roll (template or not)

    Being affected by a template not needing LoF is also a statement of the rules. As it doesn't need LoF, smoke doesn't work

    The only thing you can argue is that the DD is both "target of a BS attack" and "affected by a template" and that we don't know who come first so which "set of rule" should be applied.
    Being "target of a BS attack" and "affected by a template" have opposite effect and so you can't be both. Let's check who should come first :
    - the BS attack declaration comes before being "affected by a template" and so should be the one whose rule is applied
    - if you considere the DD not being "the target of a BS attack" then there is no target of the BS attack. As having a target is part of the BS attack requirement, if noone is the target then you don't fullfil the requirement of your BS attack and so perform idle.
     
    #45 Arkhos94, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    @Arkhos94 as an BS Attack Smoke and the associated Special Dodge requires LOF beyond a doubt.
    You're confusing Smoke Special Dodge and Dodge the Skill which are ENTIRELY different things.
    Smoke is TARGETLESS and has Speculative Fire, both of which are not to be confused with the NO LOF label as for instance Jammer has it.

    Being hit by a template from outside LOF gives you an ARO through an exception from the usual rules by allowing a Dodge without LOF with -3. You can not use this special exception to use a BS attack and in turn to drop a Smoke.

    However we're covering the case using the normal rules for AROs to declare a BS attack with a BS weapon using Smoke Ammuniton.
    If something is shooting the guy next to you and hits you in the blast, you get to ARO as per regular ARO rules if you can draw LOF to an active model spending an Order.
     
    #46 Teslarod, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm very sorry to say this, but I think a large amount of your arguments are lost in translation. I can barely make sense of your logic.

    It is not a matter of what effect comes first. That's irrelevant, because it doesn't work like that at all.
    At step 4, the Devil Dog declares BS Attack with Smoke Grenade targeting the ground so it touches both the K-9 and the DDog (K-9 Idles)
    At step 5, the HRL declares the attack targeting the K-9 and places the template and finds it is targeting both dogs.
    At step 7, (Mark) we determine that the K-9 offers no additional MODs to the HRL attack, and make rolls. HRL rolls 5 and 20, Smoke rolls 7.
    At step 8, the K-9 rolls for ARM against damage 14.

    At Mark, or sometime prior to it, we need to have determined if the attack is a Face to Face or not. We do determine that the HRL attack does traverse the intended smoke template (a requirement for Special Dodge to work), we also determine that the HRL attack requires a roll (another requirement), and last we need to determine if it requires LOF (and this is what we're discussing)

    My argument is: BS Attack with a HRL has the explicit requirement that it requires LOF, therefore the requirements are fulfilled. The effect doesn't require LOF from the attacker, but the attack does.
    Other people's argument is: The attack originates from the Blast Focus and that's where LOF is drawn from.

    I cry foul over the latter argument simply because I can't find any basis in the rules for the attack to work like that. As far as the damage effect, the only reason the main target is affected is that there is uninterrupted LOF from the Blast Focus to a point in its Silhouette, and this might seem like a weird thing to say about the main target, but it's important to realize that the main target is affected because it is under the template and not because it is the main target.
     
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  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    First less stop there, you are not targeting both dog. All the burst was allocated to the K9 so he is the one and only target.
    The DD is "affected by the template" and will likely "suffer the attack" but is not the "target"

    Once again, there is 2 situations (requirement from the rule in bold) :
    1) being the target of BS Attack, which need LoF between the attacker and his target
    2) being "affected by the template", which only need being under the template (no LoF between the attacker needed)

    As 1) needs LoF, smoke dodge works
    As 2) doesn't need LoF, smoke dodge doesn't work

    Your K9 is in situation 1), your DD is in situation 2)

    That's your opinion, here is mine from the BS Attack rule : the main target is damaged because it's the target of a BS attack and was hit.

    PS : I re-read the impact template rule and the secondary "victims" are never called "target" or "secondary target" (except in one title stating all target). They are called "other affected trooper" wich reinforce my understanding : other affected trooper are not the target of a BS attack
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    You'll also notice that smoke special dodge makes no mention of being the target either.

    Only attack. Of which the devil dog is affected by an attack, that attack requires LoF and the smoke can block that lof.

    This seems intentional in line with shooting the firer with a gun causes a face to face. Each model affected by the template reacts to the firer as if they were targeted by the attack, but the attacker derives all the mods from the main target only.

    There isn't any mention of drawing LoF from the centre of the template or anything like that which would cancel the smoke dodge, that seems to be inferred but isn't present in a concrete manner.
     
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  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Holy smokes... so that's what you've been saying this whole time? I can certainly get behind throwing smoke to obscure the main target generating a FtF with the smoke thrower caught in the blast. I thought this whole thing was about only obscuring the smoke thrower... in which case, we agree that it does not satisfy the "smoke special dodge" clauses, yes?

    [​IMG]

    Edit: testing images...
     
    #50 Sabin76, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    However, the Smoke Special Dodge requires the Attack to require LoF, which an Impact Template doesn’t.
     
  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    An impact template weapon is a BS attack requiring LoF?

    You'll notice the impact template weapon rules use area of affect, not LoF drawn from the blast focus to determine who is affected.
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    And that appears to be the sticking point; it's indirect enough that it's not really clearly spelled out. I agree with you, but I can at least see where the others are coming from.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Because the LOF relevant for the BS Attack to be valid is not blocked.
     
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    So you are arguing that you cant declare BS attack as a Face to face as well right?

    No, Impacts make no such distinction.
     
  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's all I needed, then. I made an image highlighting what I was thinking vs. what you all were talking about, but I'm having trouble posting it :/. It seems no images I post are coming up.

    So I guess this will work?

    link to image

    A has LoF to both 1 and 2, fires HRL at 1. 1 idles and 2 throws smoke as ARO:

    Option 1 obscures LoF to 2 only... normal roll, will not affect HRL shot.
    Option 2 obscures LoF to 1 only... FtF roll, will affect HRL shot against 2, but not 1 (gets hit on normal roll).
    Option 3 (best option, not shown) obscures both so that the next order doesn't provoke another ARO... same as Option 2 as far as effects.

    I guess this is just an image to support what @Teslarod was saying in his post.
     
    #56 Sabin76, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Even if we accept that the DD is not a target (which I don't). So what?

    Special Dodge lets you 'avoid Attacks' why is it a requirement that you be a main target of the attack to avoid it?

    'avoid' being usually understood to mean 'prevent being affected by'.

    Breaking down the requirements:
    Did the DD have LOF to the atttacker?
    Was LOF required for the attack to be performed?
    Was the DD affected by the attack?
    Was LOF between the attacker and main target of the attack broken?

    Those are the four requirements for a valid Special Dodge that I can determine in the rules. I'll concede (as @toadchild has done) that the fourth question is the most tenuous. It's possible that LOF to the blast focus of the Impact Template is what is relevant in this case (however, I don't see why that would not be the same for the main target and those affected by the attack... Which means if I'm wrong I'm going to start arguing that you can't Special Dodge template weapons at all).
     
    #57 inane.imp, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But it’s not LoF to the DD, but rather the K9. The DD is not under Attack by anything that requires LoF. It’d be like trying to Smoke Special Dodge a Spec Fired Grenade.
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Which is why the Smoke Grenade needs to break the LOF of the enemy attack to function ie. the LOF between Attacker and K-9.

    Yes the DD is under attack by something that requires LOF just not LOF to the DD.
     
  20. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    The fact that you can shoot the attacker in order to avoid being hit by the blast is definitely a precedent, but smoke is different enough that I'm not comfortable playing this way without a clear answer. I guess we need a faq/errata update!
     
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