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Using CC for Engage

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ghost, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I'd be willing to throw any definition of Warband in the problem bucket because they are all known and easily identifiable. The problem is Ninja, Shinobu, Oniwaban, Saito, and to a much lesser degree the vast number of capable Camouflage melee fighters. Those that can Engage reasonably far from an unexpected direction, particularly since there is no reactive turn weakness for melee.

    No one would ever play TAGs again. Or anything that's not essentially order spam. If there was a risk of running into Dahshat, JSA, Yu Jing, ISS, Ikari, Druze, or literally anything in Mercenaries extra, simply because if they put Saito in the correct place, they have a very, very, high chance of Engaging you expensive shit and you'd need to waste a lot of orders on a Sensor unit to get them freed from him.
     
  2. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    If you ARO Engage a TAG with Saito you are asking to lose him, the opponent can just shoot into CC with a Combi Rifle or similar that has minimal chance of hurting the TAG and there is nothing Saito can do about it.
     
  3. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    I mean... He can impose a -12 without AROing...
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I don't think CC engage is a problem for traditional "warbands" (meaning cheap, impetuous, CQB dudes in this case). The main reason for that is that honestly, I find it rare that a warband doesn't just blow its chain rifle all over whatever is trying to kill it at that range, and frankly, that won't change all that much if suddenly these dudes are dodging on 20+... they will still likely just drop that template!

    IMO more effective options are better than less, and as currently engage is not really a good option in most cases, making engage more inviting relative to the usual "drop template", however that is done (CC or MA Engage etc), is IMO a good idea.

    Re: "Saito is hiding in a building and I can't get him out if he dodges with CC" - I don't consider that an issue either. I can't get a skirmisher out of a building without specific tools if it lays mines in there, and skirmishers and mines are much better value for points than CC will ever be. I can't get a warband out of a building if theres no LOS outside of 2" without taking a chain to the face. So what?

    If Saito et al. jump out, ninja someone, then hide in a building, that's about the most iconic definition of a ninja's playstyle that I've ever seen. The solution being "shoot it with guns whenever you want, even at close range" is lame and another drop in the guns vs CC bucket. Why *shouldn't* CC units be more effective than shooters at 2" distance?

    Space Ghost makes a good point with regards to the enhanced "dodge" on most troops given the higher CC value on even very limp wristed units. Engage in this context, representing one Fusilier bravely grappling with the attacker while the others cower towards cover, is both dramatic and a more interesting set of game choices than simply "shoot" and "die". So I'd be pretty happy if it was a less ineffective mechanic.
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    There is. Oniwaban Engages, you ignore it and shoot at what you were shooting (or move back behind cover or whatever it was you wanted to do) you place the Oniwaban behind the TAG. Next step you triangulate fire the 40+ point model off his ass.

    If you expect invisible asshats and they might be a problem for you, the counter always has been bring a sensor bot. It's not like invisible stabbybois and AHDs weren't already a threat TAGs need to play around.

    As someone who frequently used said stabbybois, you never broke camo to engage even if it was on the second half of a move order. Even assuming success it was how you got your Oniwaban killed because your opponent is still in charge of the turn and can go and kill them, whereas if you wait said model is probably still gonna be nearby and it's much easier and safer to stab them in your turn when you can dictate the terms of engagement.

    If you don't you risk simply being shot at even without a sensor bot present, linked BS11 combi shitkickers stood a really good chance of cleaning the Oniwaban off, or you'd get mugged by your opponent's garden variety warband models that were advancing as bodyguards for said TAG. Given just +1B a Monk goes to 43-27 in a fist fight with the Oniwaban, if a Kuang Shi or another Monk moves in for +2B he goes to 53-22.

    Engaging a target doesn't mean you're home at all and there's plenty of ways to deal with them. I've managed to pin a Marut down simultaneously with 3 monks only to watch a Dakini with a combi split fire and shoot them all off.
     
    #65 Triumph, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Till you use triangulated fire or chain rifle. And then, Saito cry and regret he engaged.
     
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  7. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    You can't use a chain rifle into CC. Your friendly model cancels the template.

    I don't know how many Sensors you have in your lists but Saito doesn't have to be in a position that it's easy for you to pull off. He can counter deploy. Saito can also pick the most advantageous part of the TAG's base to tuck himself in against it and be out of LOS for a decent percentage of the table, terrain allowing.
     
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  8. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    True, i forgot about that.
    As for the sensor, the main restriction is probably "do you have a sensor in your list", because if you do, it is probably not too far from the TAG, since it's basically its job to clear for the TAG.
     
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  9. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    If it's orders that need to be spent, minimum 1 for moving into position and then the full order for shooting, that is hopefully orders that the TAG can now not spend on this turn. Any more orders are bonus. Depending on the situation I might consider that a victory in itself.
     
  10. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Still the best way to disengage your TAG. Feeding Saito with CC ARO does not really seems like a good idea.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Saito doesn't get to pick where he's placed, that's done by the active player.
     
  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Looks like I got my wires crossed on that one. Makes it much easier to put Saito in a bad position in that case.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Still requires that you have enough orders to place a non-null Sensor in LOF to where you place Saito and an expected average of 2 orders (beyond positioning the Sensor) to spend. Against a TAG list or HI PainTrain (non-Crane edition) or similar, having those orders available isn't necessarily guaranteed - not as guaranteed as Engaging would be by the Hidden Deployment Ninja if CC value is used.

    I am still a big fan of CC Special Skills applying MODs to the Engage Face to Face roll.
     
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  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Only time I use engage is to turn the warband into an order sponge. It's primary role in this case is to absorb several moves, a shoot, and hopefully cause a friendly fire wound in the process

    I can't see Saito et al. engaging unless the chances of discovery on a discover shoot are insanely high. Not keen on spending 40pts for a two order speedbump! That would apply even if he engaged on 20+ due to using the CC stat
     
  15. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I engage when the active target cannot be killed with a bs shot back and we are within range. For instance an aquila moves to a corner to see a war band that was hiding behind that same corner. The chain rifle and smoke won't really stop that HI msv2+ model and so engage is the best it has. It wins and the aquila's rambo is over.
     
  16. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I think it only applying to ftf and using phs against templates is the best tbh. You can't spinkick is wall of fire or cloud of nanobots.

    This is basically how I feel about this. I like the idea of a bit of a cc buff and the cinematic feel of a guy spinkicking a gun to the side as it fires to get all up on someone.