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Using CC for Engage

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ghost, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think it's entirely fine as it is. CC is a niche but extremely useful tool and engage is something you do as a dodge-equivalent, just like an actual dodge it gives you something to roll in ARO because you haven't got a decent gun. The advantage is with the active player, which is absolutely as it should be.
     
  2. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Contractor for Bureau Aegis

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    I'd be cool with CC for engage if it did not affect templates or could be used with kinematica
     
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  3. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Cc stat for engage or MA boosts engage means that Achilles will engage you from 4 inches away at either 24s or on 18s. If at 18s then you are -9 before range bands to shoot him. Hes dumb strong as is and this would be an even more ridiculous boost.

    This is a big reason that without a MASSIVE overhaul of how engage and cc stats work, would make him quite overpowered.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not true when it comes to melee -.-;;
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The melee advantage is that you can use your movement to directly enter btb and then attack, and their Burst is reduced severely. So yes it is true, in the sense that the active combatant can choose their target and has much more freedom of movement.
     
  6. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Shooting melee monsters within 2 inches is not punishing mistakes... its for the most part immersion breaking silliness.

    I give a +1 to engage with cc.

    As it stands an amazing shot has almost near certainty to win a f2f roll due to high numbers and burst advantage. Whereas a combat master still has a decent chance of getting beat by a random mook due to a singular poor rule.

    Auto dodging templates is not even that big an issue when its done in the 2 inch range...most templates are 8 inches or longer
     
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  7. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Chance for Achilles to dodge engage a bs 13 burst 4 submachinegun ap rounds without cover if he can apply MA3 to it:

    60% chance of successfully dodging, 28% of suffering atleast 1 wound.

    Chance if he gets to use his full cc but no ma is:

    71% chance of success vs 18% of wound.

    So tell me that engage needs to be buffed to use martial arts or the cc attack. This is blatantly to powerful for an aro.
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So hear me out here.... how about we use some strategy and not shoot at the CC monster within 3-4" because that solves all your engagement ARO problems.

    I think you guys are massively over estimating how strong this change is at a macro scale. Not walking within 4" and LOF to shoot the guy that can roll high on an engage ARO is no different to not walking within 10" and LOF to shoot at the 5pt idiot packing a chain rifle.

    Either way I don't think it's fair to judge a change based on playing like a spud against it.
     
    #28 Triumph, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  9. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    The suggestion of MA giving +3 to Engage is an interesting alternative. In practice it'd be very similar to a Special Dodge, since folks usually drop the smoke grenade close to their feet in order to get the +3 to their PH. And it would make Engage a more attractive option for Martial Arts types, while encouraging gunfighters to stay out of their threat range while blasting away.
     
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  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    so your strategy is to give achilles a bubble of about 4" that says if you cannot shoot him during your active turn outside that distance, don't. Because he will literally just kill you during his reactive turn. because there are ladders to roofs or buildings with doors that effectively lead to bottle necks. this is a poor decision mate. seriously, if it was a light boost i could understand it, but the numbers i posted earlier is obscene. At somewhere between 60% to 70% chance that achilles will end up in melee as an aro is WAY to high.

    seriously, answer me this, if Achilles ends his turn in a building besides the door, what model would you use from pano to be able to kill Achilles? i can name 1, Aquila with multi-rifle. and that is such a underused profile for good reason. hacking is an option but he is wip 15 with bts 6 so it will take multiple attempts for a gotcha or carbonite to immobilize him enough to do the 3 wounds to him.

    models like most of JSA's TO models, Achilles, most of steel's myrmidons who all have odd/TO, high martial arts and decent ph, you cannot get near as the active player.
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Something standing about 8" away from the door, to shoot the crap out of Jerkilles as soon as he comes through the door. Maybe even an entire link team, for maximum Make-Jerkilles-Deadness. Or maybe just a WarCor or Fugazi to Flash Pulse his stupid butt. Something with an EM weapon to induce maximum rage in the Steel Phallus player (I'm a long-time JSA player, EM weapons versus Jerkilles and Ajax make me giggle).

    Why would you let Jerkilles define the terms of the FtF? You're letting Jerkilles win when you do that, before either player rolls dice.

    Look, Saito is paying about 10 points for CC abilities (compared to a Croc Man), and Shinobu is paying nearly 20 points. Why shouldn't those points be usable in a situation where the enemy is assisting you in getting your dream engagement?
     
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  12. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting for CC units to get more out of that stat. Not sure if I'd want auto dodging DTW's though but I do think it raises an interesting question about different ways to measure physicality in the game.

    I think maybe an average between PH and CC would be a good measure. It would balance out Dogs and Ninjas/superwarriors who would both avoid attacks in different ways. Failing that a 3d6 dexterity stat would be a good addition to the game :)
     
  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So my thoughts on ma giving a +3 it sounds nice but units with natural born warrior, cc specialist without an ma skill would suffer a bit. Thats not a huge problem still something to keep in mind
     
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to say that we probably don't need to make warbands stronger, in general. They're already very cheap and effective
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with your point on manoeuvring as a distinct advantage for melee up there, not when compared to the advantage that shooting units have and how it's weird that you have a burst disadvantage when returning fire, but not when pushed on the defensive in melee.

    But I do agree with the above quote. There's a number of warbands that have high CC stats that doesn't really need increased Engage as well. Most such warbands do not have CC Special Skills that'd help, them, though, so letting Engage be classified as a CC Special Skill (edit with regards to what abilities work with it, not with regards to which stat to use) wouldn't be too bad, particularly if you consider that it's almost never that you can declare Engage against the second short skill.

    It's just a shame that Engage is almost never a good choice...

    ("almost", please note that word, "almost")
     
    #35 Mahtamori, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    The change would make most Warbands substantially better. Morlocks Engaging on CC21 instead of PH13, or Taigha Creatures Engaging on CC24 (Hyperdynamics) instead of PH13...
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Again, why are people running into point blank range against disposable people wielding DTWs? Nobody sane attacks them from that close anyway. Most models try to stay outside of 10" let alone 4"
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's not about people running into point blank range of the Warband, it's about the Warband ending their turn in point blank range of the enemy troops.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Again, why are you activating the guy in chain rifle range to try and fight the warband. Use something further away. But more the point any warband that close to your model is probably more likely to either end the turn in combat with you or die trying to get there.
     
  20. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Achilles engaging with his CC ? Well, why not. Throw some cheap troop in, let Achilles engage. Triangulate fire on it. Achilles can't ARO, and his ODD won't protect, nor the engaged state. I'm fine with it :)
     
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