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Using CC for Engage

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ghost, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if this has been discussed before, either here or on the old forum, but we were kicking this idea around after a game recently.

    In a nutshell, why not use CC vice PH as the stat when you declare an Engage ARO? And maybe even allow MA modifiers to apply? Net result would probably be to make this (often underutilized) common skill a bit more attractive for CC types when attacked at close combat distances - which seems to make sense from a fluff/common sense perspective and would also add another neat little wrinkle to the game's decision making process.

    As it stands now: Fusilier Angus wants to come around a corner to shoot at Hussein Al-Djabel from 1/2 an inch a way, "Yeah, whatever."

    But if Hussein could engage using his CC: "Oops, that might not be a great idea."

    This would be a slight buff to CC types (which every army possesses) in certain circumstances, but overall probably wouldn't be OP - if Fusilier Angus can shoot at Hussein from four inches away, he's as good as he always was. But if he's dumb enough to come within striking distance of a martial arts master, well ...

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    They would need to nerf MA across the board for this, otherwise you get Ninjas auto-dodging 100% of templates, which is currently their biggest weakness.

    I'm in the camp of thinking CC is too costly rn, but it would be a huge bargain if anything shooting my Oniwaban would 100% have to f2f me.
     
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  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Well-Known Member

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    They'd only dodge 100% of dtws from models in their engage range that they wanted to engage. Maybe Kinematica might need adjustment but its an interesting idea.
     
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I think it makes conceptual sense and could result in it being a much more useful skill.

    If we're concerned about templates, my suggestion would be that it counts as a FtF against the model being engaged, but offers no defense against DTWs or additional attacks from other targets (such as G: Sync or coordinated orders).
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Increase melee burst to 2, Zhanshi/OS sits at 12, scale down CC so Black Friar/Daofei sits at 13, Hsien/Miranda sits at 14, Knight/Ninja/Myrmidon at 15, Oniwaban/Achilles at 16 and Shinobu and Mishashi at 17. It is still very likely for them to dodge DTW, but the values would be more doable and you'd maintain their active turn advantage to the current values... roughly... they'd have to rely more on actually damaging their opponent instead of critting which increases the value of MA2 and AP weapons versus high-ARM targets (i.e. TAG)
    (with these values, it becomes viable for a Zhanshi or Order Sergeant to rush out of cover at a Keisotsu or Moderator, shoot Combi on the way in and then finish them off with melee - it also becomes less viable trying to use melee as a speed bump by engaging with the last order - and a Ninja who has the initiative has an OK chance of killing Shinobu at 34% versus 41% of dying)

    Changing Engage to CC would roughly speaking increase dodge chances of most of these units (with the exception of rare few like Daofei) by about... 1. Ninjas and Oniwabans a significant amount more, but they'd still be non-0 risk. Provided Martial Arts and Guard can't be used to manipulate this value.
     
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  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    It’ll always be “Intercept Dodge” to me. :)

    If you’re going to make it use CC-based you might as well switch the whole way. Make a skill that’s a 2” Charge-style Move with a CC attack. So you can choose to use it when you don’t have templates crashing down around you.
     
  7. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    We talked about how this would affect templates quite a bit and in the end decided that the auto dodge if you got too close made sense - the cone coming out of the chain rifle or whatever gets narrower the closer you get to the weapon's muzzle, and so is easier for a CC expert to dodge. But if the guy with the chain rifle is smart enough to open up from further back, then no amount of Kung Fu fightin' is going to save your Ninja. So again, this really just buffs the CC masters when things get up close and personal, which is where they really should shine. (At least in our opinions.)
     
  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I’m trying to let go of my preconceptions of how the game is supposed to be played, and figure out a Fusilier’s options for success at 2” when being shot at by another Fusilier are.

    Active player Fusilier shooting an Engaging Fusilier has the reactive trooper dead or unconscious 53%, the Engage succeeding 15.4%; stalemate 31.7. Shooting back changes the results to reactive player dead or unconscious 48.1%, active player unconscious 12.9%; Stalemate 39.6) That’s both models in cover at 2”, if I’ve hit the right buttons on the dice calculator.

    If I then switch it over to a Fusilier shooting the Hussein Al-Djabel...
    Dice calculator for Fusilier shooting vs. Hussein Al-Djabel is the Hussein Engaged 15.78%, Unconscious or dead 65% without cover at 3”. With cover at 3” Engaged is 26.36%, Unconscious or Dead is 45.6%.

    The best percentage chance the Hussein has is throwing smoke, at 37.9% Hussein unconscious or dead, 39.2% smoke.

    A custom PH22 Engage vs. B3 Fusilier shooting at 3” w/cover is 64% Engaged, 21.69% Unconscious or dead.

    But there’s a different question to be asked. Why do we want CC Total Reaction bots?

    It seems to me that the best thing you could do for that Hussein Al-Djabar would be to allow it to declare Engage without line of sight. You walked into a cloud of smoke containing an assassin you can’t see, now you’re engaged and getting attacked.

    Because you’ve got to remember the alternate use case. A Hussein Al-Djabar throws smoke, walks into the room, ends its turn, and asks “Anybody want an ARO?”
     
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  9. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    So yeah, that is more or less what we'd like to see. As it stands now, Al-Djabel's best play vs. Angus a half-inch away is to Special Dodge - which is sorely lacking from a Rule of Cool perspective. But for him to toss a Smoke Grenade into an objective room, then ask "Who wants a piece of me?" (provided they're within his CC threat radius) - that's cool. Note once again that this would only apply to a 3 inch bubble around him - so beyond that, Infinity stays the gunfighting game we all know and love. But get too close to a CC expert? Well, why shouldn't the stabby stuff rule in that case? Especially in a game based on manga and anime.
     
    #9 Space Ghost, Apr 21, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much agree.

    While N3 CC is vastly better than N2 CC (god that was a waste of pages!), it's still not good enough.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any problems with that concept. CC models need a buff anyway and it's not like most warbands aren't over performing for their costs alot of the time anyway.
     
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  12. CoveredInFish

    CoveredInFish Diplomatic Delegate
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    I'd love Engage to be a better choice for CC units.

    Using CC as stated is way to powerful.

    I think having MA give +3 on engage rolls would be easiest solution and improve chances enough to be interesting.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Some numbers on Martial Arts affecting Engage. Enemy is generic HI (Combi at BS13) written in format [Successful Engage] vs [Take Damage], no viable cover is assumed
    O-Yoroi Engaging goes from 9.5% vs 51.5% to 15.5% vs 43% at up to 3" using MA1
    McMurrogh Engaging goes from 22.5% vs 51.5% to 48% vs 33% at up to 4" using MA3
    Ninjas Engaging goes from 30% vs 47.5% to 53% vs 29% at up to 4" using MA3
    Mushashi Engaging goes from 16% vs 66% to 39.5% vs 44% at up to 4" using MA3
    Mushashi Engaging goes from 16% vs 66% to 26.5% vs 53.5% at up to 4" using MA4
    Mushashi Engaging goes from 16% vs 66% to 38.5% vs 42% at up to 4" using MA5
     
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  14. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    Engage ARO is essentially the unit's ability to evade fire to get into CC, hence its dodging and that why it uses PH. I'm almost positive the miniatures with MA have above average PH for dodging, so their prowess of getting into CC is taken into account. .
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, in general their PH is fairly average for their troop type. There's units that are made for dodging, specifically, but they aren't necessarily melee units and they're fairly rare.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    And you would be wrong in that assumption.

    Please compare the PH of a decidely non CC oriented Pan-O ORC (14) to that of a Hulang (12) with a goddamn Monofilament CCW and MA3 and get back to me.
     
  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The Hulang as a whole is just a scattered and overcosted mess built on the foundations of a really cool concept.

    That all aside, I'd be totally down for a CC stat based engage. As it stands, for such a decisive maneuver that usually involves a good amount of setup, it can get pretty janky.
     
  18. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    +1 for CC based engage. I don't think that immunity to templates is too much as its only relevant within typically 3". I also feel that templates are a bit too common and too good personally, any nerf for them is something thats ok in my book. Actually kind of makes using templates against CC specialists slightly more interesting.
     
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  19. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    So do you guys wanna see misplaced Oniwaban engaging in 24?

    Not for me..
     
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  20. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I think CC for engange is generally a good idea, but to avoid auto success I like the idea of CoverdInFish to boos the PH for engage by a +3 Mod if you have MA.
     
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