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Unpopular Opinion Time! [Post-Humans and S.S.S]

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Erryln, Sep 20, 2018.

?

How often do you play Post-Humans in S.S.S?

  1. Every list.

  2. Most of the time.

  3. Some of the time.

  4. Never

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Toalpaz

    Toalpaz Active Member

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    if you ever get tired of taking post humans just take the doctor/FO for 20 pts. Its worth it still and you can live your life playing other lists. 4 wounds, 1 order, 2 positions, 20 points. It's good.
     
  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    It's an ARM 3 BTS 3 model with NWI. It's already more durable than most units in the game.

    BS 13 with a high burst weapons is average to decent (depending on weapon access and point level), not mediocre.

    I have a feeling that you're setting the bar for unit effectiveness, durability, etc. far higher than I would. It explains why so many of them don't meet your standards. Yes, Mk.5 is vulnerable to Shock like any other 1W unit. But you won't be facing exclusively shock ammo, even if it's pretty widespread. Hell, most of the units won't have it, and we have other tools to deal with those that do have it. Yes, Mk.5 FO is very short-ranged, unless we count Flash Pulse (which is a weapon of last resort). But when in proper range it's downright scary. Going against TAK Scout with a shotgun the odds are 41.5% to 22.5% in Mk.5's favor if the Scout is in cover. If we manage to catch it out of cover, which is pretty likely when we maneuver through the midfield in the active turn, the odds go to 58.5% to 16%. And Scout is one of the more unpleasant opponents we might encounter. Strelok with SMG fares much worse than Scout, regardless of cover. If this is mediocre, then I have no idea what would be a decent gunfighter here.
     
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Yeah, the argument against NWI is that you're paying more points for a rule that's situationally negated.

    However, with Posthumans, they already receive a staggering point discount anyway. So the justification that NWI is somehow not that durable gets thrown out the window when you're basically getting it for free to begin with.
     
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  4. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Heeey lynching mob, hold it down :D I think our discussions from different places are bleeding over into this.

    I'm not saying anything in this case about price of NWI. I never include Posthumans in my appreciation of NWI costs because Posthumans are so differently priced that it doesn't make sense to include them in pricing conversations.

    I'm not even giving my comments on how price-effective MkV is (for the record, I think it is extremely effective). All I'm saying is that Mk.V is easy to die, and this is a product of the whole Infinity game system. Even ORCs die easily enough in this sense. Mk.V is easy to hit, and thus easy to die - because that's how Infinity works.
    That's what I meant. It's overall average. BS13 is a notch above averageness, so is B4, but the rangebands are pretty bad. Now, when you see the price and ammo options the weapon is fuckin' amazing, but that doesn't change the fact that as a gunfighter, it's okay. Good. Average quality (because BS11 is low quality).
    Again, this is not to mean MkV is bad unit, given it's price. But it's also not going to win awards for gunfighting.
    I wouldn't assume we'll get that Scout out of cover. Not with 4-4 MOV without special movement skills and investing much larger number of Orders than is needed. Also, 22% chance to die in active turn isn't really the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

    My stance here is same as with Yadu. BS13 without visual mods or special movement skills is mediocre. It needs too many Orders and it is too dicey. I lost my Asura at BS14, shooting in good ranges cover-to-cover too many times to think BS13 is gonna do anything for me, especially with the shitty ranges.

    And again, this is not to say Mk.V is bad or even average piece, it is freakin' amazing. Why? Because of the price and the toolbox you get with it. Not its amazing gunfighting abilities. And yeah, it is very tough for its price but it's not gonna last long once it starts taking hits, which it will because it has nothing special to help it win gunfights.
     
  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I do understand your point that Mk.5 is great for the price, I just disagree that it is easy to die (read - easier than average Infinity trooper. As I've said, it's more durable than most units), or mediocre in gunfights. Outside its good range, sure. WIthin 8" it's perfectly decent.

    Again, to me it looks like your bar for describing unit as "good" is set pretty high. What makes a good gunfighter? Is BS 12 with Mimetism a good one? BS 13 without? BS 15? I agree that vismods help a lot, but to what degree they decide about unit's usefulness in a firefight? Because I'm perfectly fine with using units like Akalis, Crusaders, Yadu, Shakti, GdA, Gwailos, etc. - which have no mods whatsoever, and whose proficiency is based solely on decent BS and weapons.

    Yes, sometimes the risk of taking a wound in ARO is pretty high (though still lower than my chances of wounding ARO trooper). Units die easily, even elite HI or TAGs. For me that's not a problem with units, that's how Infinity works. It's about minimizing the risk but with full awareness that they cannot be eliminated and that some risks you simply have to take. There's a limit what can be done to shift the odds.

    edit: to ilustrate the point: Veteran Kazak in full link shooting at Bagh-Mari sniper in full link has about 47% chance of success, with 27% chance of taking a wound. Those aren't the best odds, but that doesn't make VetKazak in a link a bad unit. Spetznaz odds are much worse, does it make Spetznaz a bad gunfighter? No, simply one unsuited to deal with this particular defense solution. Some risks are worth taking. Some less so, but still have to be taken from time to time. Some are not worth it, in which case we should have plan B in place. That's Infinity.
     
    #105 Stiopa, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  6. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Perfectly decent within 20cm. We can agree on that. But that means overall it's not really that great.
    Talking about gunfigthing proficiency in this sense is pretty inseparable from their cost. But from those you mention:
    • Akalis : I'd take the Boarding Shotgun, simply because it is cheap enough and has AD to help get it in range.
    • Crusaders : MULTI Rifle + LFT looks interesting on AD, but it costs far too much. Nope.
    • Yadu : too expensive
    • Shakti : better than Yadus, certainly playable, but I wouldn't call it a good gunfighter. Very average one.
    • GdA : Spitfire make for a good gunfighter and it comes with Smoke (so movement-enabling equipment). Not really applicable. Although its price certainly makes me think twice.
    • Gwailos : this is completely out of your zone. Nanoscreen allows movement and enables finding better firing ranges despite terrain. Also, cheap as chips. Use them regularly with my Combined.
    Wow, yes, thank you for teaching me that you need to match trooper versus enemy that doesn't cancel all their advantages and gives them negative modifiers!

    I guess I just need to find some enemy troopers which do not cancel the advantages of troopers without advantages...
     
  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Listen, this is supposed to be friendly conversation about different perspective on the game. I'm making an effort to refrain from useless, sarcastic comments. Would be nice if you'd reciprocate.

    If you're able to see that even VetKazak - a very capable trooper by all standards - can end up in less than perfect situation, then why do you judge Mk.5 with a different set of standards? In the latter case you're focusing mostly on its drawbacks, in this case range (on a side note - I wonder how popular would Mk.12 version be, if it'd be a specialist as well). How hard is it to maneuver to 8" range in your meta with such unit? Because in mine it's notvery problematic most of the time, especially when enemy advances into the midfield in his turn.

    I think you have a very narrow definition of what the advantage is. In Mk.5 case BS 13 Burst 4 weapon with AP/Shock ammo is a definite advantage. There are others in pretty much every trooper I've mentioned. In most cases I'm simply more willing to pay the price for those advantages than you are.
     
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  8. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I'm amazed at how high your standard is. I guess that anything short of a swiss HMG (for visual mods shooters) or maruts+myrmidon (for msv shooters) can't be considered "good".
     
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  9. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Sorry. Unfortunately, I don't think these discussions are going anywhere.
    And I think you're conflating multiple different types of advantages and ignoring the ability to access them.
    The two situations you describe are quire unequal in several important ways you don't seem to consider. For one, you keep conflating situational advantages like cover and range-bands, applicable to literally all troopers in Infinity, with equipment/skill additional advantages like Mimetism and similar which are available only if the profile has it.
    Furthermore, you keep ignoring the differences between ease of access of situational advantages. Getting cover is usually easy but is dictated by terrain (unless you have Nanoscreen, or you are Impetuous and don't get the bonus anyway). On the opposite side of spectrum, finding a zero-visibility zone for MSV to shoot through (provided you do not have Smoke in faction) is extremely rare.

    Veteran Kazak has access to Mimetism, which is generally useful in gunfights.
    Furthermore, Mk.V has only short-range high burst gun, which is amazing if you get into that 20cm range, but rapidly losses to even regular Combi Rifle in usefulness. Now, this ITS season it has FD2, which is great, but otherwise it is extremely dependant on terrain for getting into good range to take that situational advantage.
    I don't see what prices you are talking about. Mk.V is almost autoinclude in all my lists (although that's because I'm usually lacking a FO), and I have played extensively. Mk.V B4 AP/Shock gun is very nice, I do not disagree, but it is also very limited gun and I recognise it's disadvantages which you seem to ignore.
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I don't ignore them. I've mentioned them reapeatedly. I simply disagree how difficult it is to capitalize on Mk.5 advantages.

    The reverse could be said about your opinion on vismods. You see how useful they are, but ignore how easily they are countered by MSV and templates, both tools pretty widespread.

    So yeah. I agree that this is going anywhere. Our perspectives simply differ too much.
     
  11. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    MSV is confined to limited number of troopers in the opposing force, if it is present at all (really, how many visored troopers, especially ARO visored troopers do you see with any frequency?). Furthermore, after it is applied to your Mimetism/ODD trooper, in worst case you are still no worse off than the trooper which has no such advantages in first place, and still better against everyone else than the non-Mimetism'd trooper.

    Now is your example valid; why did you choose to engage Bagh-Mari, who besides ignoring Vet Kazaks Mimetism also has Mimetism of its own? Vet Kazaks Mimetism at least works against everyone else.
    (and by the way, this is a really bad example because we're talking about significantly different weapon loadouts)
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Because this is what a basic defence for ASA (and VIRD will have a similar setup soon, courtesy of Kamau sniper) looks like. I've simply compared one of the better TAK attack tools against one of the better defense tools. But the purpose wasn't to show that VetKazak is a bad gunfighter, quite the contrary.
     
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    I don't understand at all how that argument is supposed to work. I mean, yeah, Vet Kazak is a great gunfighter, but I have no idea why you think comparing to shooting Bagh Mari is going to show it.
     
  14. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I think that Stiopa was trying to show how a unit that is very good put in a non ideal situation will still tend to have a solid go at things? Which is paralleling his thoughts on the mk5. Or thats how I interpreted it.
     
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  15. Hjiryon

    Hjiryon Well-Known Member

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    So hold on.
    A 2w trooper with a MK12, access to impersonation state (via cybermask, hence surprise shot) -and- a killer hacking device while being immune to isolation is... average? While also being an option in a 85-point Haris?
    What's the problem with this one?
     
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  16. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    I didn't say there is a problem. She's a perfectly fine, but not particularly inspiring gunfighter.
    • Mk12 is a good weapon, but not an amazing one (I like damage 15, Burst 3 is eh, Aleph Mk12 design is atrocious)
    • BS13 is nice, but nothing to write home about
    • I must admit I forgot Cybermask because I kept running her in Haris, and that does help a bit
    She's a very good all-rounder model (specialist, KHD, tough, etc), but purely gunfighting-wise, she's not that worth noting. She's not a model I put in a list and say "that's another beatstick". Gunfighting-wise, she's a backup. At 40 points... Sorry, I don't find her that appealing. Got more interesting stuff to spend my points on. (and it doesn't help I don't really find her lore appealing either)

    Also, that 85 point Haris is really bad. XD I think you need to go to about a 100 pts at least before it's decent. But yeah.
     
  17. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    85 points has to be deva and samekh, 100 points is debe and rudras?
     
  18. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Yeah:

    [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] SHAKTI Lieutenant Hacker (Killer Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Sucker Punch) Mk12, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40)
    [​IMG] RUDRA Red Fury, Mine Dispenser / Electric Pulse. (1 | 40)
    [​IMG] DEVA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)

    1 SWC | 104 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  19. Hjiryon

    Hjiryon Well-Known Member

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    Snipped comments on her that I generally agree with. I think we basically agree on the individual factors, but where I really might field her as a beatstick, you find her falling short of it - I don't own the model yet, so no testing on this end so far. Thank you for the input, I'll keep an eye on what happens once testing does start.

    And yeah, the basic Haris is pretty bad - though I think some version of the Deva is mandatory in a non-asura Yadu haris.

    Personally, once Beyond drops. I think I'll be testing the Shakti-deva-Rudra (k1 version) team. Might go for the assault hacking deva with lightning, but not sure yet. The team seems like it can do a lot - and I like of eventually splitting it up to provide covering fire/hacking coverage/hard-to-defend-against vectors of attack.

    Out of interest, does the Rudra land in your "beatstick" basket, with ignoring armor, cover (through hacker assistance), and having climbing plus to leverage the marksmanship rifle at odd angles? Possibly the Red Fury instead?
     
  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    AHD+Lighting Deva is absolutely awesome, but it doubles on Yadu KHD duties a bit. I'd go with Sensor or Spitfire Deva for that Haris.
    Yeah, Red Fury Rudra is a pretty decent option for reasons you mention. I really dislike K1 ammo, so Red Fury is the way to go for me.