Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Erryln, Sep 20, 2018.
Troll, or bad attempt at sarcastic humour.
It's more of a case of anything it can do, dart can do better. So the mk5 is a worse backup for the same role. Consequently, I prefer the mk4 since either template aro, or a HMG that can go prone and have white noise put on them (yes, so can dakini, but not at armour 5).
Half the time I don't have enough SWC to take a mk4 however, so mk5 it is... because taking 2 proxies just seems wrong
as I said, it's not bad. I just think it's a bit overrated where everyone and there dog thinks it's a must have.
Try to make her activate a console
Dart is awesome, no argument there. She also costs 3.5x what we pay for Mk.5 FO, so she very well should be. If I have a free Proxy slot 10 pts for that statline, weapons and general capability is a steal. And at its core Mk.5 is a Specialist first, CQB fighter second.
Not to mention I can hardly agree with arguments that ARM 3 is poor for an elite MI, and that visual mods are some kind of condition sine qua non for units in general.
The only problematic Mk.5 is the one with Mk.12, and that's because of issues with Marksmanship LX, lack of Specialist status, and because Mk.5 FO is simply so damn good.
Except being a Specialist.
The Mark 5 is a great combat specialist, with high BS, effectively maximum WIP (certainly in-faction), good weapon ranges (SMG/ Grenades + Flash Pulse), who can threaten high-value pieces (EM) even out of LoF (Speculative Fire), has Suppression-capable weapons with relevant ammo types, he is fairly resilient both in terms of durability and Order retention (NWI/Jumper), and starts up towards most objectives (FD1/2).
At the cost of 10 points and 1-2 other PostHumans. I can't think of a model that gets close for even double the points (probably needs to be about triple the cost to start comparing). Dart is great, but has different kit for a different purpose.
It may not be the best unit in the game, but it is insanely efficient for the cost, and provides some valuable roles in the same package.
I often use my Mk.5 as some sort of guided missile, sending him/her/it right away into the opponent's area. He is very good in close range, will kill a lot, will probably need 2-3 orders to get gunned down after his rampage ... and then i only lost a 10 pts piece and no order :D Granted, he rarely activate anything at all, so i don't use his specialist skill a lot, but it is still worth it. And being MI, the additionnal forward deployment from the current ITS is nice.
Bonus point when the Mk.5 walked his way to some fireteam or even a lieutenant. And dead things stay dead with shock ammo :)
What kind of bad opponents are you playing? :-O It has no Marker state and only short range weaponry. How do you get it anywhere near opponent area?!
On the main note, MkV is quite good enough. Probably one of the better options.
What's the problem with having a short range weaponry when you start at only 10 cm from the midlane ? You don't need HMG range when you are invading the enemy zone. Marker state is good, but it's not always needed, same for visual mods. In active turn, BS13 and burst 4 is more than enough to win most firefights, even in the 20-40 cm range band. And even if you lose, you still have ARM3, NWI, and it's only a 10 pts miniature. The risk/reward is already heavily in your favor, what are you afraid of ?
I actually do use it and lose it easily enough, but BS13 with those rangebands and no visual mods means it usually dies or spends a bunch of Orders killing a Camo trooper.
Your post didn't say you try to use it like that, you said you succeed most of the time. There's a big difference. You are either lucky, or your opponents don't know this game well enough, because MkV, for all its advantages, dies easily enough. Especially to Shock.
It's true there are things i didn't wrote. It works most of the time, when i use it. But i don't use it most of the time. In many games, my Mk.5 just stay in the same position and won't do a thing. Which is not a problem because it just means I used another mini instead, and just by standing still, my opponent can't ignore it and probably deployed something against it, something most probably more expensive than my Mk.5.
Of course, you have to use it for what it can do. I mean, why would you even use it for camo hunting ? Notice that i said i use it to invade the enemy zone ? I use it to go and kill some cheerleaders, which means my miniature will probably end the turn too far and will get killed afterwards, but that's not a problem because it was so cheap to begin with. If you want to go camo hunting, take a MSV2 deva, or an arjunas with HFT rems, or whatever, but not an Mk.5. If you use the wrong tool you can't expect good results.
First of all, please use appropriate terms. "enemy zone" is imprecise and I couldn't tell if you're talking about enemy deployment zone or enemy half of the table.
If you want to get to enemy DZ, that usually means going past a Camo marker or two. That's why it needs to fight them, not because I use it as a Camo hunting piece.
Also, now, you've changed to not using it "most of the time", but when it works, then it works "most of the time". This is all I was trying to clear up, because your original post implied something much stronger.
I agree that occasionally it can be very useful for backline clearing.
Sorry about it, i agree my wording was imprecise.
But even if there is a camo marker in the way, you do not need to fight it with the Mk.5. Another miniature can clean the way for the Mk.5 to move past it. Moreover, do you really need to deal with that camo marker ? I mean, it really depends on the opponent you're facing, but if your opponent reveal it to ARO during your turn, he is essentially throwing it away. A camo without his marker state is already half dead, and you didn't even had to use any order to reveal it. The risk/reward is probably still in your favor.
MK5 is so optimized for its 10 pts, that it feels bad not to take it.
Even if it wont do anything and opponent just waste orders killing it... Its 10 points and no order loss for us, sounds like win anyway.
If we're talking active turn (and I'm pretty sure we are) why is the Mk5 walking into Shock?
you don't know what weapons the model under that Camo has,
you didn't even know that TO Camo model was there,
you don't always have the freedom to move across half the map to avoid something with Shock,
Take your pick.
If we're talking high level play. You should be able to make a reasonable assumption about the first point though shouldn't you? Like We've all walked into Mines mistakenly during our playing career I can't deny that but for the most part you should have a reasonable idea of whats on the board and what its likely to be.
TO Models can definitely happen. I can't deny that!
But this last one also concerns me. If you're being pinned down by a shock weapon, is it not often better to focus on other models/another game plan? Like I can accept that shock happens even in the active turn but I feel like it should be 10% of the time or less on your active turn. It shouldn't be a major concern.
The whole reason we bring stuff like Dakini, or Zayin or Yadus is to deal with the sticky situations. It feels like a strange concession to be like "well the things that are good against this rule are good against this rule." Its your active turn you shouldn't be having to face off against those things! But thats just my opinion.
1. That may be a problem if you have to walk in template range of it.
2. Nice, now you know where that TO camo is, it is revealed, and since it's your active turn you may be able to deal with it even with the loss of your Mk.5. That is, 10 pts and 0 generated orders, for something that is probably 30 pts or more and 1 regular order per remaining turn. Still a win for you.
3. So your opponent put some troops to hinder your Mk.5. But, you have other things elsewhere, don't you ? Most probably 290 pts worth of them.
Once again, the thing with Mk.5 FO is not that it is an ultra badass one (wo)man army like Achilles, but that it is dirt cheap for what it does. It is efficient enough the opponent can't ignore it: as a specialist it is among the best (WIP 15, what else ?), as an active gunfighter it is quite decent (B4 BS13), as a reactive it is good enough (BS13 shock or WIP 15 flash !, plus ARM3/NWI). So the opponent has to do something about it, but anything other than a cheap warband using it's impetuous order to kill it in one (lucky ?) action will means your opponent had to use more ressources than the Mk.5 costed.
Errrr... I had to recheck the history of where you got that Shock comment, and no, I was not particularly noting active turn.
But, even in active turn, if you have a good high level opponent playing with lot of Camo, then no, you cannot always tell what is a mine and what is not.
Second, sometimes you still go take it because it has much better chances of living through it, and if it doesn't, you lost a 10 point model vs say 30 for Naga or 36 for Dasyu.
Third, you cannot always engage at ranges or situations you would like. That Dakini or Zayin are deployed in different places and carry weapons not suitable for close-in combat. Shock is everywhere, especially if you're trying to mess through enemy deployment zone (Submachine Guns, various Pistols, Mines). Sometimes you have to go against Shock because you are favoured to win and don't have infinite orders and points to always match your best against his best.
Besides, in situations like that, often you are still better off attacking in your active than doing something else and allowing him to engage you on your reactive turn.
How did you go from "it shot MkV with Shock" to "you exchanged MkV for TO Camo"?! You exchanged MkV for location of TO Camo model. That TO Camo is still alive until you kill it.
Sigh. Really? Opponent has to usually spend one to two Orders by a high value unit to remove MkV which has been left to ARO. In that case, it has not spent a lot of resource, but more likely, 2 Orders off some Fusiliers in the back powering his Swiss Guard, or equivalent.
Let me say this once more, for last time:
Mk.V is excellent model. I'm not disputing it. I was disputing claims like:
While MkV can certainly do this, against decently skilled opponent it should happen rarely if ever.
It's a absolute steal for its 10 points, but that doesn't mean that model isn't super-vulnerable. If the enemy wants it dead, it'll die super quick, and more often that not, it'll die during Mk.V active turn. That's all I'm claiming.
I guess I misunderstood I thought we were talking about the MK5 invading enemy terrain. In the reactive turn for sure shock is a serious issue for any V:NWI model.
It just seems strange to assume that your opponent is some sort of perfect deployment/playing king that will exclusively deploy in an effective manner that denies all avenues of advance and all opportunities to clear those avenues. Getting good fighting match ups for a unit is very realistic in general.
I was talking both. Sometimes it's still worthwhile to advance even if enemy has Shock weaponry; as you say, the risk may be worth it, or there were several ways for enemy to hide that it had Shock weaponry.
I'm not assuming it. I was merely pointing out that MkV dies easily enough, especially when enemy comes armed with Shock weaponry. Furthermore, it's lack of marker state leaves it extremely vulnerable in reactive turn (WIP15 Flash Pulse is nice but isn't that reliable), and lack of visual mods means it is a mediocre gunfighter.
Now that said, it is still an excellent piece for the amount of points it costs. But it is hardly, as you point out, Achilles or say Su Jian or even a Kamau. It's just a very cheap unit.