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Unmasking Tips?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by WiT?, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Hey all, looking at running either Nomads or Tohaa into a tournament that features Unmasking.

    In the event, Unmasking is suitably different enough from the other missions, and a mission that I struggle with, to the point where it can have its own list. But I've been practicing it lately and finding that going second seems to be pretty rough.

    So I have a few questions for the Nomad community, particularly vanilla players. Two are broad and one is very specific.

    A) How do you protect your HVTs or the consoles without link team ARO or area denial ARO?

    B) What do you prefer for button pushing and for assassination duty?

    C) My regular opponent has been running a list with Irmandinos and a linked LGL. The Irmandinos cap the buttons and the LGL kills the HVT from anywhere. I can't think of an effective way to meaningfully stall or stop the Irmandinos or a way to prevent the Speculative Fire. Thoughts?
     
  2. Zmaj

    Zmaj New Member

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    A) You should check the CivEvac rule: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CivEvac You can "synchronise" with the HVT and bring it deeper into your side of the field, but I'm not sure you can do it when the HVT is discovered.

    B) For button pushing I'd use Zeros or Spektrs because they still start closer to the Consoles and are in Camo. Zondnautica AHD also looks good for this (fast and can smoke the Consoles). For assassination I had some luck with Hellcats, if you are willing to forgo the Datatracker points, and if not Zondnautica again looks good (as a Datatracker, probably the Spitfire one).

    I'm newish to Infinity and I played Unmasking only once (I enjoyed this mission more then others I played), so take all this with the grain of salt.
     
  3. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    You don't need fireteams to provide effective AROs, and there is a good chance that a table set up wont be conducive to this. As for you second point Nomads are the one of the best faction when it comes to area denial, through mass minelayers, camo Jammers, repeater nets and mass perimeter weapons. Unmasking does mess with this a little tanks to the exclusion zone do make this more difficult but not impossible especially if you go first.

    Due to the EZ Hellcats really aren't that useful and are countered incredibly easy. For HVT assassination things like the ZN (AHD or Spitfire), Taskmaster, Kriza, Prowler (though you give up the DT kill, same goes for the Bandit), any of the TAGs with the Lizard being probably the best with its HGL.
     
  4. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Unmasking is a pain in the ass and it's like the one mission that Ariadna is good at. I think if the board is unfavorable there's probably not a way to keep your Designated Target alive against them except through luck.

    I think you should concentrate on killing your opponent early on, since Nomads or Tohaa both can slap around a tuned Unmasking Ariadna list no problem. Then you can win by doing parts of the mission Ariadna could never get away with, like having more consoles and keeping the datatracker alive.

    Also, don't forget you can doctor the DT. That's a pitfall of the spec fire strategy - it's important to put them completely away.
     
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  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Morlocks and the libertos are your friends here, they will clear out mines, give you smoke cover and at wip 14 on the 'Locks Intuitive attack can and will make a mess of their skirmisher line.

    this is really only something to be done in desperation, as I'm pretty sure they don't have cubes so if you fail you just wasted resources on doing your opponent's job for them.
     
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  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Hello Avicenna!
     
  7. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Doctor was my best response too, pity there isn't anything better. They do seem to have a cube though - its a great ancillary use for a tomcat doctor.

    Looks like its a "take your lumps then go ahead and do it to them in your turn" type of setup which I can handle but am kind of disappointed with. We get grenades on the Prowler which is a legitimate way to get an HVT kill but less so a datatracker kill. The LGL platforms are poor and I'm not a fan of the HGL TAG (or of this strategy in general). Tohaa might be the better call if trying to spec fire to victory.

    Wondering what peoples preferences for datatracker capable assassins are? I see Kriza and Taskmaster above, but typically I'm not the biggest fan of the brute force S5 profiles. I've been wondering about Hollow Men or possibly the Riot Grrl - super jump or MSV is pretty legit. That said the koala defense on the Taskmaster is particularly interesting. But looking at what other good options are in the faction too.
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Sin eater/Reaktion zond for long range ARO, multiple minelayer (hellot, puppetmaster, zero) and moran crazy koala for midfield

    If you fear heavy rambo, heckler boarding/emarat is a good tool

    Lizard HGL. Speculative fire is the best tool to be able to kill the "true HVT" with your datatracker

    For button pushing : zero and heckler KHD (to enjoy KHD bonus for button pushing) and moran FO (so you can white noise against MSV ARO). Add some 6 points morlock for sacrifiable defense/smoking the objective

    Against Irmandino, mine/crazy koala/morlock

    Against speculative fire : sync your HVT and hid it in a closed room (no other protection)
     
  9. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Remember that there is some space between exclusion zone and enemy deployment zone. Not a lot of people expect a Tomcat specialist showing up there come turn 3.

    Also, since we are talking about defending while going second - you set up your HVTs at the start of your deployment, so you should already know where his troops will be, so make the enemy GL link waste as many orders moving up as possible. Their chances of picking HVTs off in the -3 zone are not that good, and if they waste all of their turn killing the Designated Target, you'll probably have an opportunity to remove their main offensive pieces and try to catch up. You might not be able to prevent the enemy from getting those 5 points for killing your Target with their DataTracker - but that's not the end of the game.
     
  10. Zmaj

    Zmaj New Member

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    Has anyone tried Perseus as a DT for this mission?
     
  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I would go with the Hollowman if you arent a fan of the S5 guys over the RG. A solo Grrl really isn't that great of an attack piece as she will very quickly lose access to cover due to frenzy making her arm 3 and not imposing a vis mod in a firefight, the Hollowman however is faster (atleast in the first mov), more durable, can set itself up in hard to reach places making difficult to attack, and will always have cover.

    That 4 inch band that where both the edges can be trivially covered by deployable weapons or conventional AROs making such tactics pretty close to pointless? Thats been my experience with AD and EZ's since the godawful things were implemented anyway.

    Yes, and he great at it. However if you go second he can become very fragile. what he loses in manoeuvrability and durability compared to the Hollowman he makes up by being an arguably better gunfighter and having access to a solid delivery system with Smoke.
     
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  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    This datatracker question has me perplexed. I usually do not run 'beefy' models outside of sectorials or Tohaa, as I firmly fall on the 'skills beat stats' and 'mimetism beats ARM' bandwagon, so I have very little experience using typical datatrackers well.

    I'm glad someone brought up Perseus, as he is a legitimate option to consider.

    What I'm looking for in a datatracker is these things;
    • Datatracker is a "niche requirement", a bit like taking an engineer for your reaction bots. You don't give a shit if your engineer has a gun, and likewise, generally I'm looking for a model that covers this role with a basic competency without costing a lot, instead of a powerful centerpiece model that is generally more effective and pricier. I can be talked around to taking those models, as a major reason I'm playing Nomads is to leave my comfort zone, but generally am biased against them.

    • The datatracker's "job description" is "survive en route to the crappy civilian and kill it" and "not be easy to alpha strike if going second"

    • The datatracker does not need heavy duty combat power if it has another way of getting there, ie smoke negates some forms of defense.

    • The HVT is likely to be covered with traditional BS ARO (strong or weak), mines/koalas, possibly template trash, and possibly jammers or hackers. Different datatrackers seem to be better against different types of defense.
    Likely candidates - please let me know if there are some I've missed;
    • Riot Grrl: A cheap HI whose ARM, Wounds, PH and hyperdynamics let her jink through mines very effectively. But poor BTS, no stealth and hackable makes her vulnerable to other area effect ARO such as jammers. Frenzy causes her to crap out in general effectiveness after her first turn of use.

    • Hollow Man: A cheap HI with superjump, he is more resistant to some area effects due to BTS 6, but worse against mines due to PH10. The superjump means he might get a cheeky angle on an HVT. Packs a direct template to help force bad choices. Seems to be a good 'heavy' and something not that worried about slotting into my army.

    • Krieza Borac: The biggest non-TAG gun, but he's hard to hide and expensive. I don't particularly rate the HMG as an HVT assassin - I've had an Avatar fail multiple times at this in poor rangebands. Has the best ability to clear direct ARO if smoke etc can't get you past it. Is tough and high PH to resist mines as well as BTS 6 to resist technical area defenses.

    • Taskmaster: big and expensive, but not quite as much as the Krieza. Packs 5 ARM, PH 14, BTS 6 (tinbot on some profiles) for resisting mines and hackers etc pretty well, as well as stealth to help pass those zones. MA1, CC19, DA CCW give it an edge if the HVT ends up in smoke (whereas Riot Grrl or Hollowman goes into full bitchslap mode and the Krieza also has a decent fail chance). HRL can get cheeky hits in by discovering and shooting a mine or unconscious defender, shotguns give it advantage at close quarters and pulzars give it more game against markers that might be in the way. Crazykoalas give it passive defense to resist an alpha strike and can trigger AROs or Mines to help the Taskmaster get past. Free agent also helps when running a large list (dunno how large anymore with a 50pt model in it)

    • Perseus: Cheap, mobile dude with smoke (a big deal), template, close combat. Also unhackable. He's terrible against mines though and I expect a crapload of them. Smoke and unhackable are such a huge advantage. If it weren't for mines I think this would be the stand out option for me. If the mines can be negated with morlocks etc he may still be a premium choice.

    • Lizard HGL: I really dislike speculative fire as a mechanic and want to avoid this, but could be good for getting outside my comfort zone plus the other missions are all very TAG friendly. Downside is that due to all the TAG friendly missions, assault hackers etc will be plentiful.

    • Lizard HFT or Sally Hypercannon: Not good at killing the HVT in particular, but good at just killing shit and AROing and then slowly but surely fighting its way over for the kill. Don't rate TAGs at knife fight distance though.Similar downsides to the Lizard HGL

    • Zondnautica: Very cheap, very fast, and has smoke. But is garbage against mines, not great in a direct fight, and isn't good at clearing ARO - kind of relies on smoking up any ARO and then shooting or even intuitive attacking into the smoke. Wish it had some CC ability.

    • Krakot (SMG, Dual SMG, Red Fury, or grenades): Cheap, deploys forward, very squishy. Potentially but unreliably very mobile. Can perform a poor variation of the speculative fire trick. Ran the numbers and the SMG is better than CC if you can get them close and out of cover - dual SMG is 77% to kill a dodging HVT in one go. The cheapest 'good' datatracker option.

    • Gecko: This is the TAG for wrecking ball-ing into the HVT and killing it. Vulnerable to hacking, but walks through weak ARO and mines and can jump out as a B4 BS11 pilot for a desperation run.
    Is this an accurate assessment? Any I've missed? What do you guys rate and what would you leave at home? Right now I'm leaning towards the Taskmaster or running Perseus and some way to clear those damn mines. Smoke on a datatracker is super legit. The third option would be something like a Krakot and then a ton of Morlocks and lots of orders to help get him there with smoke, jumping on mines etc. Thats a style I'm more familiar with.

    Shows how much experience I have with this faction. My Riot Grrls have never lived long enough for Frenzy so I totally missed they have it.

    God its like your reading my mind. Fuck exclusion zones. If deployment skills are too good, make them more expensive or nerf them, rather than make them randomly not work. Same logic for datatrackers imo, if 'non marker' combat models are shit, fix them rather than forcing their use through mission design.
     
    #12 WiT?, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    borisgreymenace and Tourniquet like this.
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Typically yes but after a certain point things swing back in Arms favour a little, but the big beefy things often have extra wounds/str which means means a single lucky crit wont derail your entire plan, which is more useful than mimetism.

    There is the tin bot GRRL that mitigates the hacking issue, in addition to the usual Nomad info war game that should have info war superiority before you engage with her (or any hackable).

    at arm 4 and 2 str Hollowmen don't really care if they get tagged by a mine as it will only cause one wound at most. additionally they have the mobility to trivially circumvent the mines.

    Even with a 50 point model its not hard to exceed 15 orders across effective models. if the HVT is in smoke the TM (and the others with DTWs) can intuitive attack into the smoke to nail it. you will probably want to take the RF profile for the burst, CQC range bands, and shock.


    A few general comments;
    you have morlocks, moran crazy koalas, warcors and libertos to clear all the mines of the way to make a hole for the DT and skirmishers to get through.
    Nomad lists can naively pack a significant amount of InfoWar hatred without really thinking about and without impeding your game plan meaning you can get away with running HI and TAGs with more or less impunity (E/M weapons, CC specialists and Jammers excepted, but there are tools to proactively deal with these).
     
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  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I'm mostly about what models pay for these abilities. Being 'crit-resistant' isn't as good as a -3 penalty in my book, but it certainly isn't as good when you pay a lot more for it.



    I'd overlooked this, only paid attention to the spitfire (best offense) and combi specialist (can also push buttons if your primary button tapping plan goes belly up). The shotgun has some game I think. As an extension of this the combi+tinbot+chain colt hollow man also may be useful for a similar reason, trading more mine resistance for an arguably better gun (I prefer the combi over the shotgun for this job, though there is merit to clipping camo and mines with a template) and the chain colt which is such a superb tool to have.

    I'm not experienced with hacking (main army is Tohaa!) but generally don't rate it outside of the obvious interactions like killer hacking whatever AHD you run into. I probably under rate it tbh, and plan to give it a go, but its part of the package of biases I get coming from an infiltrator/warband playstyle and from dealing heavily in Tohaa.

    My main issue with hacking is that it is pretty order intensive form of support when compared to warbands. A morlock is likely close by or possibly actively benefiting from impetuous, able to get smoke, CC, a template or sometimes just a body and is very expendible. So if your problem is mines, template trash or a long range ARO you can't fight, he can get there and deal with it efficiently cheaply, and without much drawback if he dies.

    A hacker is often at the back of the table (Zero Killer Hacker aside, which I plan on running), and requires a pitcher or repeater to get in range, and then a face to face that it can lose against some targets, and then leaves an opening for enemies to exploit your repeater to attack you.

    As such, I prefer models that require the morlock's style of support to those that require hacking backup if possible. Models that resist hacking natively are better suited to what I have experience with. As such I do like this tinbot grrl as this covers hacking and to a good extent mines, but I am still left with jammers as a problem area. Morlocks can often have some impact on this by targeting Ghazi or flying in to rescue the model once a Heckler or Zulu-Cobra reveals itself.

    They can get through one mine, which is usually enough to qualify as 'resisting them', they have in-built shock immunity and it is easier to get good engineers than good doctors in Nomads which is a plus. On the minus side though, I plan on running a doctor natively to help counter spec fire and an engineer may be a possible extra cost.

    I disagree on mobility though. They lack the firepower to simply jump about anywhere on a table with good contesting ARO pieces or even flash pulse remotes. And the mines (and ARO) are likely to be concentrated in proximity to the target, meaning a forced interaction with them in order to engage.

    15 orders is for the weak. I've been typically building 18-21 model lists with Nomads. I'd feel a fish out of water with 15 but it is something I'm going to test. I don't like relying on one dice WIP 13 rolls for anything in this game, so really do like the backup option of a big fist.


    Could you elaborate on the native infowar? I'm not super on to dealing with hacking and especially jammers, keen on any suggestions that help in this area.
     
  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Native Infowar is essentially the amount of a hacking presence you have in a list with out really trying. It usually looks something like 1x HD/HD+, 2-3x KHD and a smattering of repeaters/pitchers/fast pandas (personally I regard this to be a little on the light side).

    As support for your list, you need at least a KHD or two to clear out enemy devices that will attempt to lock down your HI as they push forward and to press buttons along with authorizing the use of REMs.

    so there are two somewhat skewed perspectives that need to be addressed;
    Firstly, yes hacking is or inefficient, but as a lot of the time it is a safer route that doesn't risk the piece, that can allow you to take on any hackable target at no risk if/when you decide to shoot them, as all they can do is reset which doesn't f2f shots (Great for taking on Dakini/unidron fireteams, HI in defensive fireteams, TR bots etc.). Or you can use it passively to slow down enemy hackables (providing they don't have stealth) further taxing their order pool.
    That is just the direct combat capabilities (murder hacking excepted), when it comes to support through the HD/HD+ you have the standard buffs of Enhanced Reaction (Meh), Fairy Dust (corner case), Assisted Fire (almost always useful), Controlled Jump (List dependant), Excorcism (List dependant), and White Noise (Which doesn't require the target to be hackable to pop in ARO).
    White noise is the big one here as it has the most utility of any of these, allows for essentially smoke shooting anything with a visor, defensively block LoF, and allow fo you to easily take town linked visor elements by throwing it down then coordinating a Moran and B4+ weapon (normally a Kriza), you run a koala out where the model can see it and move the gun into LoF behind the WN, they have to dodge then you light them up.
    When you really start to examine hacking properly it has a lot of very useful applications and can solve problems at very little risk to yourself but at the expenditure of a few extra orders.

    Secondly; Warbands. Warbands everything and anything is inefficient when compared to these horrifically undercosted and absurdly effective pieces. They skew the game something shocking and some of the best models out there, points to orders and how much damage they can inflict, they are a bad metric to compare other tactics and models to.


    Zeros, Spektrs, Bandits, Hecklers and Hellcats are all solid hacker profiles that can and often are up field so very rarely have need of repeater nets. Some of these carry good repeater profiles (Namely the Zero and Heckler).

    As for forward repeaters in addition to the above there's the Tomcat, Meteor Zond, any REM and the Morans who have one built in, which is probably pretty close to an auto take unit. To further bolster this the FD1 hecklers pack a Fast Panda on their Jammer profile, so between their marker state, 4" MOV and the 8" MOV(functionally 9 if you include the initial placement of the Panda) on the Panda you can get a repeater to where you need it with out trouble. The Only hackers at the beck of the table are the Salyut, Interventors and the LI hackers.

    When it comes to your oponent exploiting your repeaters, remember that it WILL get hacked back by it's target then dogpiled by all your other hackers. More often than not they will only bother if they can attempt it through their own repeaters, or get close enough to do so directly. Just like one doesn't engage PanO in a fair firefight, you sure as hell don't start a hacking fight with Nomads.
     
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  16. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Cheers man, you've given me a lot to think about. A mixture of morlocks and hackers should be enough to get a Taskmaster or similar to the target, feeling more hopeful for it. Thanks for the assist, haven't seen such in depth suggestions on this site in quite a while
     
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  17. Zmaj

    Zmaj New Member

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    Has anyone had any luck with LGL Alguacil or Moderator as DT? Maybe in combo with Deployable Repeater and Spotlight.
     
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The aggie may be viable in a fireteam but beyond that probably not worth it. The moderator, really not worth it. if you want to specfire the only reliable way is with the lizard or vertigo and maybe the intruder or prowler if you dont deploy them in camo.