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Units removed

Discussion in 'News' started by Arg, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The same could have been said for the other troops like the Shasvastii. Many didn’t like the look of them. But they kept them, made them better both with rules and figures. With JSA, they were mixed in Vanilla as it should but the sectorals were split as they should be as well. I feel if they had come out with IA earlier including JSA troops like Domoru, things would have been different. But it’s over and done with. I just need to hope they don’t invalidate more of what I have. Miniatures are a wealthy mans game!
     
  2. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I"m actually expecting alliances and some dramatic story-line switches along this sort of line. The Timeline jump a couple years in the future is a perfect opportunity to tweak political balances. Even something as large as breaking the conflict zones into 3-4 larger alliances (O-12 alligned, CA, Nomads/Tohaa for example, but not an actual idea) and the Factions aligning with them in different ways for their own purposes.
     
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  3. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Who says that means completely removed instead of shelved though? I personally took that to be a production stand point, not the army going away completely.
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Ditto, kind of the same treatment SAA got. As others have noted, I could see homes for some NCA troops in SWF, perhaps.
     
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  5. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    That is a shame. Which factions did it happen to you?
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Many years ago 40k Alpha Legion and Emperors Children.
     
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  7. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I fear this is the way the cookie crumbles. I have been told that there is a problem with playing games of companies who also sell the models is problematic. Here we are. Goodbye to my French models. :disappointed_relieved:
     
  8. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Maybe save the tears for if it actually happens.

    They can always give FRRM the same update they got N2>N3, where they basically adjusted the costs to the new formula, gave Moblots some interesting profiles, and that's pretty much it.
     
  9. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Well they are finally back. Different yes but at least they are back.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Without dedicated rules for the models, profits aren't going to be as good. So when buying a miniature you need to be ready that it will not be relevant forever - partly because eventually the company will need to re-release a range of models to stay profitable but also because you yourself will likely not play the gane forever.

    As much as I say that CB needs to remove sectorials so that the game will stay relevant and to maintain a quality experience, this does not mean that all miniatures of a range will be thrown by the roadside.

    In fact, I am expecting the removal of sectorials to be less disruptive than the outcropping CB did with JSA, simply because I don't think the interesting ideas that sectorials had will be abandoned and that the vanilla faction will retain the interesting profile concepts. What I hope will be abandoned are the duplicates or the kind of failed concepts - reshaped in the next release into something more exciting.

    As much as I see people reacting with negativity to what I write, I am convinced that this is an opportunity for a more exciting game.
    So don't say good bye to your French, instead look forward to how they will feature in the future - but try to avoid the sunk cost fallacy ;)
     
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  11. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I do have the tendency to play a game forever, always using the same old models. If all customers were like me, model companies would probably go bankrupt. What I mean is that it is wiser to play games that only require generic models such as historicals or standard fantasy. You can switch between rulesets and rules will not be changed for the sake of profit. But I do accept that companies like cb must make a profit in order to live. And sometimes they have to discard something for it. Doesn t mean i have to like that part of the hobby.

    What failed concepts are you talking about?

    What do you mean with sunk cost fallacy? The way I see it, if MRRF gets dropped. There are about 30 models i my collcection i cant use anymore which I planned to play forever.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, you can't cater to all customers, but at the same time CB is (or has gotten) fairly generous with what they consider to be allowable models according to the rules. If Metro were to go away forever, there is nothing preventing you from using them as south eastern Line Kazaks provided you allow yourself to view them that way. You're not even required to use units with the correct weapon.
    Let me show by examples, because context matters a lot when it comes to failed units in Infinity.

    So an example: Domaru were a failed unit in Yu Jing. They work(ed) in JSA, but in Yu Jing you'd typically only get a minor success out of the LT profiles and even that was a bit dubious. That is to say; it was hard and costly getting them into the position where they could perform when used outside of Fireteams, unless your opponent was dead set on playing into your hands. This was true for many JSA units, but not all.

    However, if you go into slightly less obvious fails, data mining seem to suggest that both vanilla and IA Yu Jing lists using the Daoying sniper LT are struggling and that Daoying sniper in general is both unpopular and using them results in poor success rates (meanwhile Daoying HD LT is a smash-hit particularly in vanilla). To me this is surprising, even though admittedly it shouldn't be, because Multi Snipers in N3 are very costly and the unit doesn't have too many tools to gain an advantage over any enemy even remotely likely to peek out for AROs.

    Sunk cost fallacy is the fallacy where you think you can't abandon something because you've put a lot of resources in it and instead keep spending effort and money on it even though the prospects of return on investment (whether monetarily or emotionally) is low to non-existent.
    It's also called the Concorde Effect I see now that I look it up to talk "less out of my arse"

    In the specific context here, I'd argue that it is a sunk cost fallacy to accept a sub-par faction that risks not enthusing you instead of you because you've purchased a lot of miniatures for it. (I want to make a point that I'm not attacking you here; I'm still somewhat struggling with this when it comes to JSA where I haven't decided whether I like the new faction or if I stick with them because I have a lot of miniatures for them and having liked them so much, so this is also speaking a bit from personal experience - though I can recognise that for the game at large, in the long run JSA is probably better off as NA2)
    It could be a sunk cost fallacy for CB as well, but for them retaining e.g. MRRF that they have stopped selling is more on the promotional end of things - do they get enough good will that the people retained will keep spending on their products to merit the cost (work hours developing, testing, proof reading, etc) spent developing the factions? Updating from N3 to N4 will be costlier than updating from N3 to N3, after all. See this as a customer retention or marketing decision.

    More examples are World of Warcraft or just about any MMO. You're reticent about leaving it because you've spent a lot of money on subscriptions and items and you've spent a lot of time getting your guild to where it is, even though the game doesn't actually get you excited or interested any more. (I've personally gone through that a few times with MMOs, GW games and MTG to name a few, for different reasons in each case)

    Sorry for being wordy. :(
     
    #72 Mahtamori, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
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  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    From a game point of view, Metro and Volunteers provide Vanilla Ariadna with the same cheap orders as other faction get with 8 points S3 and S4 drones. It's not only a "different flavor" of line kazak
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    There's a couple things to point out here, but I do think it's a good point to consider.
    Before the scrouge called Wildcards made anything link with anything most Sectorials had very limited link options and downright terrible profiles could be well worth it as Link fillers, Specialist option or miscellaneous utility addition.
    However Links that had to pick up stuff like a Mobile Brigada Combi - just because it was the cheapest option available not because you actually wanted it - were and are almost universally suboptimal or downright terribad.

    The old Domaru+Haramaki Link was a lot better than the new Domaru+Tanko Link relative to its era before wildcards. Same for the old Magister + Hospitaler core, which was probably the holy grail of HI Links for the beginning of HSN3.

    Using the Faction+Profile+Pickrate sheet as a straight up tierlist is not going to turn out well.
    See Joan AP CCW Lt vs Joan DA CCW Lt.
    Joan DA CCW Lt is flat out better than the AP CCW version and if you have an extra point lying around you should pick it up. However you should not mindlessly prioritize using the DA CCW version every game over investing the extra point towards a different upgrade or addition for your list.
    Bad performing Profiles mostly say a lot about the players picking them on average rather than the Profile itself being flat out bad (for the most part).
    And that's just aside from 300 picks for a certain Profile still being on the low end as far as sample sizes are concerned.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Don't you mean Traktor Muls? Metros are more equivalent to Moderators for Nomads, Fusiliers for Pan-O and Keisotsu for Yu Jing while Volunteers are most analogous to Kuang Shi and little else. None of those are holy, particularly not when a new edition changes some of the fundamentals of the game.

    Aye, and arguably the old pure Haramaki was better still and gave Domaru a serious identity crisis, and I would argue that the old pure Haramaki link was the best HI link the game has had once costs are taken into account.

    I'm aware that using unadulterated win rates is poor at showing trends. Infinity is very tricksy. I do think the Daoying has sufficient number of picks that it's starting to tell us a few things about how they work (for example, I don't think the Daoying BSG has enough picks to show anything), but particularly for sectorials you need to keep in mind that a profile that might seem bad might experience a tremendous boost if they introduce a special character with a force multiplier weapon to the faction (f.ex. linked ARO pieces suffer against Nimbus so introduction of Nimbus to IA might have great consequences for the viability of Daoying Sniper - not that I think this is the case, but it is a possibility) so just because Daoying sniper might inarguably have problems doesn't mean that the problem is inherent to the profile, but it could be a problem on a faction level.
    Edit: and just because a profile has problems doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, but I'm hoping they'll make a QA sweep on such profiles.
     
  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I played Ariadna, Aleph, Nomads and Pano and Volunteer/Metro fill the same job in my ariadna list as S3/4 drone does for other armies : cheap order with a small job on the side

    S3/4 provide some utility (repeater and/or mimetism/flash pulse ARO) and the requirement to get them is laughable (techno army can always take a KHD skirmisher to fullfil it)

    5 points Mull doesn't provide much utility and need an engineer to take them, with no use for him except 2 to 3 classified obj (we have better D-Charge user with scout/uxia). To put in simply : they are here to provide 2 orders and nothing else. I never take them outside Highly classified

    On the other side, volunteers/metro provide utilities (ARO) and have no requirement.
     
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  17. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree and applaud CB,S right and even sense in killing sectorials. A game cannot remain unchanged forever and a company is not a charity. Sunk cost fallacy is real and a challenge for individuals as well as corporations.
    Mahtamori makes a lot of very valid points, even though we disagree on the tohaa value, and cb is allowing you to continue to use your miniatures. Do the French function different from other factions? Yes...but is it kinda cool to show up with a lot of gen 2 not up to par minis at an event with a great back story and unique appearance that you are using us ariadna stars for? I mean not for me but I can see others getting a kick out of it.
    My main disagreement with the sky is falling approach to this thread is I do not believe cb will wipe out factions. They will.stop making them, they will not get new releases and dont kid yourself about when or if they become.active again, but they will still be updated in n4 and playable.
    Yes in theory over time the pool of mrrf, and nca and tohaa will shrink until it is a rounding error, but the electronic support and ability to push your beloved force around will continue.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We'll have to wait and see on factions, but I think it's prudent to, when lacking clear indication of what "removed" means, that you prepare yourself for that a faction may not get an update and may no longer be officially supported or be drastically changed. This luxury wasn't offered the Yu Jing community and I don't know about you but I'd rather not have half a year of bitterness and schadefreude taint the forums again.
    Still sounds more like the cheapest infantry each faction has rather than the cheapest REMs. There's only 1 point difference between the combi Keisotsu that Yu Jing used to have and the Rifle Metro that Ariadna currently has. That a unit fills a role that is frequently used is not any protection from being changed or being removed is my point.
     
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  19. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    Very true. Being a jsa head as a side note in wish keisotsu dodnr have courage and were a little cheaper. Outside of link enablement they are not the most awe inspiring troops.
    Good point on prepare for the worst but hope for the best. Cb has all of our preorder infinity miniatures...I mean defiance money to keep them healthy and happy until may and august after all.
     
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  20. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I like it. For StarCo, Uhahu and Emily could go hang out in Corregidor but not Vanilla Nomads.
     
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