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Tunguska - beyond the classics

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by inane.imp, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    A complaint I make often about Tunguska is that it feels like it's got very narrow list building options to build a tournament capable well rounded list.

    The two most common archetypes I see fit these two forms below. Neither are complete lists as both have room for flavour depending on meta, mission or personal preference; but the room remaining isn't really sufficient to completely change the character of the lists. Nor should it be taken that the profiles are gospel: swapping 1 or 2 profiles around doesn't usually change the essential feel of the list.

    Taken together, both lists are competitive and can be built to do well in a tournament. That's not being argued.

    Rather, it's been pointed out to me that I'm missing a range of good options because I'm focussing on traditional list (Nomad) building methodologies rather than leaning into what makes Tunguska different.

    Give me some ideas guys. How do you/we/I build in a wider Tubguskan design space and play non-consensus Tunguska.

    *Hollowmen*

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)
    HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18)
    HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)

    4.5 SWC | 219 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    *Defensive Sec Core + Kriza + Hecklers.*

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9
    GRENZER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    SECURITATE Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    KRIZA BORAC HMG / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 54)

    5 SWC | 219 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I still want to find a way to use Grenzer Core. The ML and Interventor could be used early game for ARO and SS2 hacking. Later game you expect to bring the other 3 up for late game cap/hold. Rely on the other units for alpha strikes, counter-attacks and minor objectives. Might be able to prototype it with Wildcats.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I keep running into wanting to use Securitate options to bring the cost of the link down.

    Compare:
    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    GRENZER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GRENZER (Forward Observer, Sensor) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GRENZER Spitfire / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    SPECTOR FTO (Regular) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    GRENZER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GRENZER Spitfire / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)

    7 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Is SSL2 Hacking worth dropping an order and swapping Percy for Raoul? (The Sec Core looks even better if this becomes a filler Grenzer or Sec profile: the difference is basically another order).

    This does explore an area that I think I've been discounting: late game aggressive special cores that make use of lots of the bells and whistles. Designed to start the game defensively but swing to aggressive play ideally in T3. Probably pairs well with Puppets... but I feel it misses a door opening option unless you go Kriza. But that's me falling back into the listbuilding traps I mentioned earlier.
     
    #3 inane.imp, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    loricus likes this.
  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    the choice is probably closer to which core do you take as opposed to which core and its support elements. For example that Kriza in the securitate archetype could as easily be a Szalamandra, a couple of Spektrs, triple zondnautica, Tsyklons or Puppets, and that is if you are running the securitate as a primarily defensive core and not as the follow up punch with Percy after Raoul does Raoul things.
    All of which are styles of list I've dropped in the past when I was last playing TJC (I rotate through the armies I own on a quarterly basis and currently back on vanilla).

    TJC2S
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    SPEKTR Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    GRENZER (Forward Observer, Sensor) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    SPEKTR (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    3.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    TJC supplies
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    PUPPET MASTERS Hacker (Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    ZONDNAUT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 32)
    [​IMG] ZONDMATE Chain Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (5)
    SPECTOR (AD: Combat Jump) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 33)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    ZONDNAUT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
    [​IMG] ZONDMATE Chain Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (5)
    ZONDNAUT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
    [​IMG] ZONDMATE Chain Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (5)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    On the less sane side of things there's the HM twin missile team with Puppets/Kriza, which I have had some success with. Or if you want to real bat shit there's HM twin missiles and a Szalamandra which is incredibly swingy and an all or nothing list but it is a blast to play.

    Height of Stupidity TJC Ver.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 90)
    [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA PILOT Contender / Pistol, Knife. ()
    HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18)
    SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    HECKLER Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  5. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That's why I spent a few months not using any intruder support weapons. Now they don't always make in it to lists, with the only weapon over 24" (other than fausts) being the linked feuerbach and possibly an hmg Hellcat. You can't find the tools while you have the solution already.
    But you have to accept that you're gonna have struggle games.
     
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  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Also the second it moves past 16" the Kriza starts losing its effectiveness in the tight quarters of the table, which is then compounded by either enemy or terrain based vis mods, the former of which is very common which often leaves you with a very sad Kriza which will only be effective at the handful of cross table fire lanes that are easy to avoid.

    Though if you have more open tables, and your meta isnt suffering from an Aleph/ CA/ Ariadna infestation it can be incredibly dominant, it's just lately I haven't been finding worth the points.
     
  7. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    I'm going to go through my thought process for coming up with a list for an event I went to, I apologize for the length of the post but sometimes a list alone doesn't tell the idea behind it.

    The list was intended to play L&S, Acquisition, and Firefight, but ultimately because of the matchup and board setup when I got to Firefight I chose to go up with my 2nd list a Hollow Core. The Hollow list was used in Supremacy, Countermeasures and FF.

    A little personal history here I've been getting my dreams crushed by a good opponent and friend running Shas at several of the last events I've been to, we've met in the late rounds and I've made a few mistakes, haven't had good enough answer for Dazers. Since my other list was the HM core and they get crippled by well placed Dazers I decided that my second list needed to not only do the missions, but also have an answer to Shas' dazers.

    Play testing the broharris for L&S led me to some promising results, so I started there even though I feel both Perseus and Raoul perform better on their own. I decided that L&S was one I needed to gamble getting a decent score on to place well so I just had to make the broharris work in some other missions too.

    The Spektr was the obvious choice for anti dazer work, I could counter deploy him and hopefully spend few orders to clear a path for the rest of my troops. Also in Acquisition the FO serves a dual role, it can be a TO token Liaison Officer if I go first, or a reserve hidden unit to make a last ditch grab for the objective even if I don't have many orders left. The Spektr can also be a bad alternative on the AC/2 after a stop at the panoply, but that's only if it's gone terribly bad. In firefight it can be another unexpected attack vector with AP mines.

    Past this I knew I needed a Heckler, or hopefully two. I didn't want to over rely on the Jammer. Krakots and Vanilla are much more common it seems and I felt the BSG E/Marat offered the best of both worlds while still possibly fooling my opponents into thinking it was a Jammer. I tried to fit a jammer into several versions of this list, but ultimately only went with the one Heckler.

    As for AC/2 Defense and FF back edge control the lone heckler wasn't going to be enough. I had really hoped to put down a puppet master minelayer, but after trying many combinations of this list; I liked the idea of it going second when I could, so I sacrificed it for the Lunokhod. I feel it's got a dual role, and the HFT version has been useful to me on several occasions as an offensive tool, or more often as a multi order speed bump. The Koalas are also one of the few AROs in TJC that can respond through smoke if someone makes an efficient 1st turn run at the AC/2.

    The securitate core was a no-brainer, I needed to keep it cheap, but I spent the points on the Grenzer ML. I wanted to force my opponent to deal with one high risk ARO and that profile has worked before.

    I intended to use this list for FF, and I needed something unexpected to clear out a path to the AC/2 in L&S. I didn't feel the Spektr alone was good enough. With Raoul on the board in the Harris, I thought fewer players would be looking for the forgotten Meteor Zond. Plus, I just love this thing, it's often a toolbox for Tunguska. Also, using the Spektr and making a show of asking my opponent to turn around would help to disguise the Meteor in group one.

    The Lt is obvious, the Interventor. I feel it's usually the best choice in TJC, but I feel it's absolutely necessary for the Broharris. White noise, Assisted Fire, and hacking through Stemplar repeaters was crucial for their success in L&S.

    Sorry for the wall of text, but the list is a little odd looking so I thought some insight on why I made my choices and how there were specific to the scenarios, likely opponents, and relevant to the other choices in the list would clarify why I ran this.

    The list...

    Slack and hash
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    SPECTOR FTO (Regular) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    STEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    GRENZER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    METEOR ZOND Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    HECKLER Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    SPEKTR (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    4 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Ultimately I never ran into any Shas and this list played versus OCF in L&S and HB in Acquisition. In case you're curious, here's how the list played in those scenarios.

    OCF had a sphinx that the Lunokhod mostly stopped, but I got put into LoL before the broharris could strike on round 3 and I got a minor.

    In Acquisition I reluctantly felt I had to go first because of the 4 Mutts. The Meteor did an excellent job clearing out 2 of them. Only one made it close enough to do some damage. The Lunokhod burned down the Asiwira, Leila and the Muyibs atfer they had advanced and done some damage to the Securitate core. Datatracker Perseus got eaten by Al Djabel who was deployed for a run on the objective not in my DZ. Raoul and the three remaining securitates jumped him on the central objective and crushed him. A Ragik rifle came in, but got HTA'd into bad range bands and bad dice prevented him from accomplishing much against me.
     
    #7 jfunkd, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    Penemue, E-Warden, Metal730 and 3 others like this.
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the write up. The wall of text was absolutely necessary to understand how its meant to play.

    How do you feel that style of list deals with long relatively open firelanes? Lean into the core early? Meteor w MML2 to open up a new vector?

    As much as I love Lunokhods I find I struggle to get them up the board without clearing off a couple of AROs first: Helots or Overclocked Flashbots, not necessarily top tier AROs. Without a gunfighter, what's you're approach?

    It's a good point about the Woody Hariss-son being about to avoid all LOF with an Interventor (the same is true of a Percy + Repeater Sec combo). But I notice that you're not running a KHD, how do you find that works out with a Hacker Lt. My personal experience is that it's absolutely essential to stop your Repeaters getting used against you trivially.

    Also, no healing of any kind. How does that work out? I find, particularly if I'm running REMs that I really need a Clockmaker to deal with unlucky dice. Probably less of an issue in that list as there's no one thing that's absolutely critical if it goes down, other than the Interventor and a Dr won't help you there. But it dissuades me from looking at the FD1 Tsyklons as a primary early game gunfighter: you have to pair it with an LI/MI primary defensive ARO.
     
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  9. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    In my match against HB, there was a Muyib HRL that I simply outranged with the Grenzer ML and I took the shot. It worked. The HMG is there for the blunt force approach.

    With the Spektr in group two with few orders, It's not much of an option for clearing out a lane, but it can contribute to help the Meteor by opening up the edge for it to come on. With the Interventor in group 2, it can sometimes throw in more support than just Assisted Fire as the Meteor moves in.

    Against some armies/deployment the Broharris can be the primary tool by covering it's advance with smoke and white noise. The interventor in group two helps here too.

    They are best IMO at attacking the midfield and forcing bad ARO choices with the HFT and HSG. I try to have patience with them and use them only on what moves into the middle. I'm willing to sacrifice it to keep DTW and rambos off of my order pool, so if it gets to be aggressive it's a treat.

    It's painful. I struggle with where I deploy the Lt. I'm fine going second with this list, but the Interventor can be a liability. The Stemplar starts far back in my DZ and the Lunkhod is self protected from being the attack channel to all but suicide KHD, but it's still far back because some high PH warband can always clear the koalas. Cybermask whenever you can afford it, it's a priority.

    If it goes badly and I lose the Lt early the 4 Securitates and 4 command tokens take some of the pressure off my turn, but the loss of hacking will still hurt.

    I love the Clockmaker with Hollow Men, it makes too much sense not to have him when they can drop prone with two levels of unconcious. In this list it doesn't matter so much. The Meteor will almost never be worth the orders needed to bring back as it's operating deep, and the Lunok is either a disposable speedbump or a 2nd turn midfield attack unit; if it dies hopefully it was in the process of incinerating the poor bastard that killed him. I'd much rather spend orders on the broharris than try to repair the REMs from the 2nd turn on.
     
    #9 jfunkd, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Why I describe the Sec + Kriza + Hecklers archetype rather than just lists based on just Sec Cores is that specific base build is one of the two prototypical TJC lists: how you spend the other 80 odd points is flavour (Puppets work very well to round out this build). You can even do things like drop the Interventor or a Heckler and it'll fundamentally feel the same, except against opponents where you really needed those capabilities.

    Whereas a Sec Core + Triple Zondnautica build is doing something fundamentally different, even though it shares some similarities. My question is it just a meme list or does it actually work as a tournie list? If so how / when?

    Equally a Sec Core + Combat REMs build is fundamentally different to the Sec/Kriza/Hecklers build or the Sec Core + Triple Zondnautica build. My question is how do you build this archetype such that it would function at a tournament?

    At the moment every time I look at a Sec Core + Salzy list I see a worse version of the Kriza TJC list or a Vanilla Salzy list (SoF lists notwithstanding). It fundamentally loses out on too many of the support options that makes the Kriza version great. The Salzy is also a lot more central to that archetype than the Kriza is to its: you have the options that the Kriza can be used for 1 or 2 key exchanges and be still worthwhile, whereas you need to make the Salzy work or the list will fail.

    I'm OK with, "this won't work in every mission but this archetype is really successful for mission X", jfunkd's write up of the Woody Harris-son does this quite well. You can't expect every archetype to fit every scenario.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @jfunkd that's largely what I expected to hear. I find relying on the ML Grenzer or Sec HMG to clear AROs concerning, particularly with no way to stand them back up again. Even with Smoke and White Noise, my experience has been that eventually you need to clear the ARO.

    OTOH, that's probably an argument to look at running Grenzer MSRs over MLs in 'not Kriza' lists. Unlike the ML it has much broader active turn applications, and opens up room for the plethora of Spitfires in TJC. Hell, even vs the vaunted Kamau you're on 51/33 vs 29/13, so its actually a ok brute force option (particularly if coupled with a Dak). This gets better if you can exploit Sat Zones (although risky on your reactive).
     
    #11 inane.imp, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  12. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Firstly they are more mission specialised builds (which since season 10 is fairly unnecessary). Secondly it started as a meme list that turned out to be far more effective than it ought to be after some tweaking.

    It's a go to build for supplies and capture and protect for the most part or any mission that favours mobility.
    A Tsyklon based build is useful in Decap and unmasking style missions where you need to hunt down specific targets in which case their FD1, speed, climbing plus and support ware allows for them to get to the target and put it down fairly reliably. A ZN list can be equally as effective, it just has more predictable approach vectors.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'd lean on Hollowmen in Decap and Unmasking. They have similar mobility but can be a Datatracker. (REMs not being able to be Datatrackers / LNOs is extremely annoying from a list building POV.)

    But why Tsyklons over Hollowmen? And how do you see the archetype working in practice?

    Edit: Hollowman Haris + Sec Core could be a good build for both Decap and Unmasking. Allows you to keep the Sec core on defensive duties while you go hunting with the Haris. That coupled with the insight about MSR Grenzers and I see the beginnings of a list.

    Perhaps this:

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    GRENZER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 32)
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Or perhaps just a Hollowman duo (Spit + BSG SO) and beef up the Core for late game use. I've used the Spitfire alone for this role in Vanilla, so it probably doesn't need the burst.

    Umm... so I maybe built a Grenzer list that seems like a decent option for Unmasking... Or a ZC mission.

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    GRENZER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    GRENZER (Forward Observer, Sensor) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GRENZER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    GRENZER Spitfire / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14)
    PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Grenzer MSR door-opens then Puppets go forward and push buttons, then act as a speed bump. Hollowmen go forward as the second wave and kill key things. Grenzers are all that's left alive... and they would probably be better off as an aggressive Sec core for the speed... but I got distracted by the dream.
     
    #13 inane.imp, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    After I posted that I came to a similar conclusion RE the HM haris being a better option. The reason I brought up the Tsyklons was that I had tried that one when I was specifically trying lists that didn't rely on HM for something different.
    The archetype runs similar to the YJ order battery + Rui Shi.

    The Grenzer MSR has seen the table as a brute force kamau killer with enough success to warrant further inclusion.


    Something like this with a little refinement (including what is in which CG) may have some legs. Maybe drop some stuff for Raoul so that way you aren't super reliant on shooting your way out of your DZ.

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    GRENZER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    HOLLOW MEN (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 32)
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 24)
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    GRENZER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This is probably a good refinement.

    Strong core, with the pace and range to handle last turn runs at a target: with Percy a great backup assassin. Percy also gives you non-shooting way out of the DZ option.

    I think I like that more than squeezing in Raoul. But yeah, thats another option.

    You run into the usual Tunguska Decap Lt issues though. Pray for first turn so you can Cybermask.
     
    #15 inane.imp, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It's why I prefer to never leave home without a lunokhod, between it and puppet master mines the LT is often well enough protected.
     
    #16 Tourniquet, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Fair, I still find 2 x Hecklers + Puppetmaster ML does it. But you can usually easily swap a Heckler for Lunokhod to taste. The reason I usually prefer Heckler KHDs is because they do double duty as skirmish screen and Hacking support.

    That raises an issue: wanting 2 x Sk (counting Hecklers as Sk) in most lists actually starts to feel really limiting in Tunguska as compared to other Nomad lists. However, outside of Puppets, TJC also doesn't really have the disposable cheap AROs alternative of NCA and Varuna. So building a depth of defence rapidly becomes a list building issue.
     
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  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I've found you typically need to far more aggressive and proactive with TJC when compared to the other two main nomad sectorials or vanilla. TJC can absolutely hammer an opponent with obscene firepower or hacking (where applicable), so often the best option is just pure aggression and delete as much stuff that will give you headaches. Taking first is often better with TJC whether it's for hard aggression or to set up a defensive net with suppression pieces and support ware, as well as getting them into position, and we can't forget LT order to cybermask right off the bat.

    Though that may be more my play style and list building preference.
     
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  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Almost all my lists start very similar to one of those 2 archetypes, but with some few changes:

    I usually put a hacker on each core. Every time I've not done it, some stealth HI has moved free and attacked from where he wanted. But paradoxically, most times I bring them, I get to play against non-hackable troopers.

    The other change I usually do, is the Kriza in the second one. Sometimes I've changed it for pupets (but they never, NEVER have worked well for me), or different combinations of reaktion, red fury heckler, spitfire zondnautica, and the characters.

    I think I will stop trying different ways and focus on those that work formost people (Except for puppets), because my results trying all options I could until now are not very good.
     
  20. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    Without reading more than your, @inane.imp's, initial post I had the idea of forming a more active Securitate core accompanied by Ashcroft's Hunting Party. Although I have no real clue if this list is suited for which mission I'm quite confident it'll work in some. My Idea with the Spectrs is to pretend to be a Heckler with the FO (works fine with Exclusion Zones) and to deploy the Sniper hidden.

    Active Core
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW, Knife. (0 | 23)
    GRENZER Spitfire / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    SPEKTR (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    SPEKTR MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 39)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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