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Trying to make Hulahg great))

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by epsilon, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How many points and orders should you need to spend to make a 44-point model viable, before you spend orders on the model itself? In a way, the Hulang is so expensive that it should be mostly self-contained, but at such a high price for FD2 as it apparently pay... it is not self-contained enough.

    Or, turning it a bit on its head, if you've got a Ninja KHD and a MadTrap Kanren, why do you need a Hulang? Other than as bait for your opponent to get their AHDs to eat Skullbuster AROs from HD Ninjas, I mean.

    Maybe the Hulang would've been better as a Wildcard unit without FD? Drop them down in cost significantly and have their role be to provide a sort of CQC insurance policy for the main fireteam. I.e. instead of be a replacement for Shikami, they'd be a replacement for Domaru.
     
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  2. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I usually take the Ninja and some sort of MadTrap profile for my vanilla lists, so I don't see it as much of a compromise. But I do understand your point. Regarding the Wildcard thing, it would've been cool. Hulang would've been like Cranes for IA: though guys that can move up the field inside a Fireteam and eventually whack stuff dead.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Because sometimes I need to cut Joan in half and the Ninja and Kanren don't cut her so good. They're good profiles but they're not great at bullying chunky units off objectives/zones. I don't think the Hulang profile is great, it's certainly shit for IA which is something that should be looked at in terms of a rework. For Vanilla though as it currently stands the model is "ok". It's not mind blowingly good but you can find missions and lists it can work in if you're willing to build something around it.

    This is a list I've used a fair bit. It's solid list for a fairly wide variety of missions.

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 44)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]7
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Something people forget is if I Target/Spotlight something the Hulang blindfires E/M nades on 12s up to 16" out, or if he's within 8" he throws them on +6 for PH18.
     
    #83 Triumph, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  4. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but you could have just shot them with something instead of targeting/spotlighting.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think this is an outdated line of thought for a Vanilla player. The game has evolved over time and things have changed. Link teams have become more diverse and increasingly more powerful in flexible unit composition, and also more common as more and more sectorials release more Vanilla players pick up factions like OSS they have been waiting to play for a long time. AROs have also become stronger in general with things like the Dakinis and Kamau pushing the envelope. I have found building lists with non direct attack vectors is a useful tool to have available because as a Vanilla player your direct firepower is becoming increasingly less relevant and reliable.
     
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  6. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    Also note that in this list, he has 2 lieutenant orders he can spend freely on supportwares... or spotlighting. It won't impact his order pool since he has no NCO to spend the orders on.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hulang spec firing an Asuras at 8-16" range = 24% chance of disabling, 36% chance of providing free movement. (62% chance to FO 17% risk to lose Guilang, though I think I ran these numbers without giving the Asuras cover)
    Zuyong shooting an Asuras Spitfire at 16-24" range both in cover = 51% chance of causing wound, 11% chance of taking wound, increasing to 68% vs 6% if you FO first.

    It's very order intensive and thus risky to the mission to attempt such a thing. I picked Asuras because it's a reasonable target to toss E/M at and it's reasonable to try and FO them. Compare this to an Epsilon or worse yet a cored Kamau sniper and the FO just becomes too risky, even if Speculative Fire is ideal to deal with them. On the other hand, you don't spend two+ orders just to isolate a random <20 light infantry.

    44% chance of FOing a Dakini HMG/Sniper

    Yes, indirect fire power is increasingly relevant, but a Wu Ming has almost the same (29% chance) of disabling a Dakini without first FOing as does a Hulang (30%) after risking the Guilang, and the question is, why would you spend 44 points on a 30% chance when you can do the same with almost any of the game's light line infantry light grenade launchers at 51% chance.
    E/M grenades on a Hulang's pitiful PH doesn't really hold up as an argument. For almost the same points you can get Tai Sheng who can both do the FOing (not that you would) and also has a 44% chance of disabling that Dakini for one turn under the same conditions, reducing order risk. Tai Sheng's grenades work a lot better against BTS 0 to 3 targets and does things to throw-away skirmishers. For one turn, granted, and these two fill different roles.

    Don't get me wrong, Hulang has interesting gear, but at the end of the day they are very, very, expensive. And not very well geared for grenades.

    I know his list is pure example, but...

    He's also got a Son-Bae in there which can lob AP+DA at BS 16 if you manage to FO and that Hulang could be regraded to a Tiger or Ninja and a few other small benefits for alternative vectors and extra orders.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The answer to that is pretty simple the Wu Ming starts too far back, as does Tai Sheng, and neither bring the other thing I want to the table which is the ability to threaten to wipe hard targets off in one hit. Neither a Wu Ming or Tai Sheng can threaten for expensive trades which is important in missions that want you to take specific points of ground. Tai Sheng can throw stun grenades at an HI link all day but it doesn't solve the problem of somebody needs to actually kick them out of the objective room. A Hulang can make anyone short of the Japanese think twice about rushing and setting up on objectives.

    I find it's a pretty reactive piece. It's a mid field specialist that was a wide tool kit and honestly I don't tend to give him many orders at all, some games he gets none. The point of the Hulang is it exists to deny an area to my opponent. He sets up somewhere and says don't come here because I will punish you if you do. It comes down to the opponent if they decide if they want to test him. On the occassions that my opponents have decided to encroach on his area of control he winds up doing his job and they have regretted it.

    If you're using him as an offensive piece yeah I can see why you'd be fairly disappointed with the results he doesn't gun fight well. But you know, that's not how the model works square peg round hole. I made the mistake of trying to use it as a frontline aggressive piece for a while and it never felt good.

    People have a habit of trying to remove the Son Bae. The Hulang gives some redundancy to the list amongst other things. Just to be clear though in the Son Bae is the primary user of the targeted/spotlighting, the Hulang exists as a backup or if there's for some reason too much interference like a couple of hackers and ECM in play.
     
    #88 Triumph, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Look, yes I get the theory, but you're tying up 1/6th of your list into a model that's poorly supported and that in spite of having FD2 has problems adapting to the battlefield situation. For lower-cost units this is less of a problem since you get more points to spend on supporting or alternate units. In my opinion, the Hulang at the points cost offers piss-poor odds at almost everything it does to get into range. Great odds for a 20-point model, terrible odds for a 40-point model.
    The few times I've faced Hulang they have been extremely easy to control. Being aggressive wasn't an option for them for exactly the same reasons as you think Lui Xing are bad, except it's a lot easier to soft-contain a Hulang. Sure, they stole a lot of orders from me because I was faffing about trying to IMM-1 then shoot them (which incidentally has over 3 times the success chances of a Hulang spec-throwing or twice the chance against a Marked Hulang or 8% (4% units) higher chance vs non-Marked compared to Spec E/Ming a Marked)
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't actually have any real issues with my opponent trying to dive on the Hulang early into the game. If they do that they're overextending into a mess of warbands and exposing themselves to my ability to hit whatever comes after him with smart missiles.

    As far as being aggressive with the Hulang outside of an MSV2 ARO turret locking down an area it actually doesn't suffer from the same issues as the Liu Xing at all. It has a gaggle of models to throw smoke for it to let it get into position. Unlike the Liu Xing he doesn't start that far away from his necessary support, who incidentally have an entirely separate combat group of orders to set up for him if necessary. The Liu Xing's problem is that he needs to be able to penetrate an area defended by a hacking network on the opposite end of the table but doesn't have the necessary support in faction to do so. Literally giving IA a pitcher would solve his entire issue.

    In the last game I played with that list the Hulang's entire contribution was to sit within 16" or so of the central objective on Acquisition to discourage Joan from pushing up to hold it, and then on turn 3 push onto a console activate it and sit in suppressive fire with a -9 MOD in the final turn. That was his entire job and he performed it well. Yes, he's not particularly well optimised for his cost, but you'll notice the list is built around adjusting for that with the rest of the list being filled with extremely hyper cost efficient models to offset that. While the other models are great, the TacAw Zuyong for example is fantastic in efficiency, they can struggle to deal with stuff like a Knight link or a Tikbalang locking down an objective. Which is exactly where the Hulang comes in to shore up the list.

    You're expecting the model to go out, be very aggressive and do alot of work with alot of orders. A more streamlined profile probably could but alas not everything is Kamau/Ghazi level retarded. On the other hand he's not entirely useless to Vanilla, you can build a list to make the model function for specific mission types. I like to call it hippity hoppity get the fuck off my property. The one thing the model really brings to the table that the faction otherwise doesn't have is the ability to threaten expensive and tough models with getting bricked or instagibbed. Put a Knight link in an objective room just about everything else in the faction struggles to deal with them in an efficient manner. Put a Hulang near that Knight link, they get really nervous really quickly about things.
     
    #90 Triumph, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  11. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    @Triumph its nice to see a new way to think about the Hulang! Having that said I would really love to have this model be useful in IA.

    I always seem to make an awkward list with IA and usually end up with 1 combat group because I would rather keep those 2 orders in the beginning of the game than have to ChiaYI.

    I have played him once in IA and he did a fantastic job as an attack piece. But that's only because I was playing an inexperienced player. He more than paid for his points.

    From my perspective players are upset because he is not worth the points in IA.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't really know if it's entirely the Hulang's fault he doesn't fit in IA or it's the fact that IA feels very badly half baked and is missing other working cogs.
     
  13. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    That's fair. We all know something has to be done. Maybe N4 will help us out. I'm not holding my breath.

    Having that said I really enjoy the theme of IA and I play them for fun.
     
  14. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    This is very well articulated. We're dealing with 2 problems.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's certainly what I would have liked it to be!


    That might be a more reasonable role/slot in IA-as-released. Domaru are certainly Death Incarnate in CC, and the Hulang is expensive.


    Pretty sure we're dealing with a bit of Column A and a bit of Column B here.

    IA is half-baked (at best), and the Hulang certainly doesn't fit into IA-as-released.
     
  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think the Domaru statline is a good place to start with the Hulang. He needs to actually be able to throw his grenades.

    Another idea might be adding wounds, amour and BS to a Varangian guard.
     
  17. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Double post for some reason
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's like yes we can blame the Hulang for being the Hulang in IA, on the other hand we have a sectorial where we assumed he was missing smoke support because CB decided smoke grenades in a sectorial with the Rui Shi and a the super slick new Zuyong link might be a little bit too good.

    Then Dahshat rolls up and not only is the super slick Zuyong link there but it can link with the bloody Rui Shi and it comes with smoke support.

    Por Que?

    And we're not even getting started on the Liu Xing, Shang Ji, Guijia, uniquely restricted wild cards and a whole host of other things that are completely out of place for a modern sectorial release.
     
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  19. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I have said this before and I'll say it again. IA was design not to be a great sectorial.

    Yu Jing are the red headed bastard children of the Human Sphere. We have the least about of profiles of the core 5 factions and we have the least amount of secortials. That is the way of things.

    Carlos "Bostria" keeps trying to brain wash us by saying "Yu Jing #1". If you say a lie enough it will become the truth in peoples minds......Those people being non Yu Jing players haha.
     
  20. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    I still don't get how you guys can be so salty and still playing the game.
    In my experience, IA is actually pretty strong and enjoyable. I like spending time theorycrafting and list building; then try my plans and see how it works (or fails).

    So is vanilla YJ. I don't understand why you look at Dashat or at other rosters and complain on what you have. Either you like YJ as faction (aesthetic, lore, the idea you think it represents... Whatever the reason), and you play it with what CB gives you (or takes from you, with Uprising :D) - either you're looking at gameplay and assumed power level and you switch on what is the best faction available.

    I mean, I suppose there are minors things to fix here and there... But sometimes, reading you, I feel so tired of the overwhelming salt and negative feelings. You're barking at the wrong tree: the problem is not what CB is doing with YJ, the problem is that it's not what you want and it upsets you. Get over it or switch faction/game. I personally enjoy doing the best I can with the tools they gave me, and I truly hope they don't listen too much to us.

    I just wanted to let readers know not everybody is angry at IA/YJ design.
    (And I don't like the Hulang because I often loose him stupidly - that's my fault, I don't want him to change I just need to learn how to play it...)
     
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