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Trying to make Hulahg great))

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by epsilon, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    It's also a very good way to have him being killed by a KHD instead. I think I'll stick with the AHD vulnerability thank you :joy:

    I like to repeat it once in a while but I'm still in favor of adding the decoy skill to help the hulang: It helps him both as an active unit (harder to counter deploy and hunt down), but also as a passive threat (threaten multiple areas at the same time), and unlike the limited camo proposition it doesn't encroach on zhencha's design space.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The typical* KHD will have about as much chance of offing a Hulang through Redrum vs Redrum as an average* AHD/HD+ has of committing a non-Hacker Hulang to Oblivion, 36%, but that's only if you position the Hulang so that it can get chased in this manner and the current Hulang won't be able to put up a retaliatory defence of about 25%. During the Hulang's active turn, the current Hulang will be unable to move properly through repeater areas if there's a Sixth Sense Hacker anywhere on the table and won't be able to work constructively towards mission goals at all inside repeaters. A KHD Hulang can take care of this problem and reduce your reliance on Haidao KHDs with a roughly 50% vs 25% chance if they have to punch a typical* KHD. Naturally, if your opponent has a couple of KHDs and a HD, they'll gang up on you.
    And yes, that's coming from the person who repeatedly mentions how often he loses Ninja KHDs. I frankly hate hacking because of how little you can stack MODs due to the way Repeaters work -.-;;

    * Typical KHD tends to have 13 WIP and 0 or 3 BTS with one wound. An average AHD/HD+ tends towards 14 WIP (the HD+ers beings up the average). In my opinion. I'm using Gangbuster for KHD and Cyberghost for AHD/HD+ because a) they have stats that aren't extreme either way and b) they're in the same faction.

    Weirder things have happened, but Decoy is a weaksauce tech for Yu Jing, the Hulang should in that case be full Holo2 (*shakes fist at MO for cramping our design space*)
     
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  3. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Holo 2 on the Hulang would be really nice, if we can keep the cost down (with Frenzy, maybe). He gets surprise shot :D
     
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  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Holo2 would be pretty cool, and play quite interestingly with the Kanren in vanilla.

    I'd still want to correct the issue of crap PH being attached to those grenades, but it'd be a hell of a step
     
    #204 Weathercock, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  5. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    The problem is the Quantity. IA by it's nature can't afford to pay for 3 or 4 skirmishers without sacrificing his HI structure or filling up spots in it's 10 man list. The most common scenario is 1 or 2 skirmishers trying to hold on enemy fireteams or skirmishers. A KHD option is both a zone defense but it's also another vulnerability to your very expensive "skirmisher". Even with a minelaying option It's not enough to cover the needs of the sectorial in midtable. So for me there are 3 options to cover for this.
    • One man for the Job. a Bulky skirmisher profile with decoys, mines and/or perimetral weapons. a trooper with a wide presence on midfield and dificult to hunt that forces the enemy to progress more carefully.
    • Cheap sacrificial ARO pieces. in concept something similar to a warbad but in midtable. Infiltration grunts, libertos.... but this option is not suited for limited insertion if the pieces provide orders and count as troopers
    • Some kind of Pupettactica-like troop. one controller, 3 cheap midtable aro pieces even if not linked
    I don't see any other solution to that problem. My main worry is if that sort of solution can become too much if it's integrated in vanilla yujing, and if it fits Gutier's vision of the sectorial.
     
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  6. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    This is a really cool and flavorful idea.

    Also, while we're talking about introducing new things to YJ, has anyone mentioned replacing the E/M grenades with Drop Bears?
     
  7. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    It's a bit dishonnest of you to not account for the fact a KHD can just grind through the hulang one wound at a time in multiple order (around 50% to deal one wound with redrum for your average KHD), while the AHD is a lot more binary in its result. But yes, KHD duel are very risky. Still, I'd rather have an isolated hulang than a dead hulang, and no matter what we say or think about AHD these days you're still much more likely to run into a KHD.

    As for IA's reliance on the linked haidao to deal with hacking, the hulang has the same big weakness: no marker state, which means he can be killed by your opponent's KHD before he can do its job, or end-up pinned down by AROs and unable to reach ennemy hackers. I'd rather have KHD upgrade programs on zhencha/liu xing AHD tbh, it would make those profile a lot more appealing.

    Holo 2 would fit the bill as well but it's also a much more expensive and powerful skill. I think Decoy would be enough, and is a more reasonable proposal.

    There's an obvious one though: anything that isn't in a 5-man team should have the tools to keep himself alive. Zhenchas and liu xings are alright, they can hide on rooftops or in the clouds, the mowang is a though bastard, who can dish out some long range AROs before diving for cover. The hulang is the only one who really needs help.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How is it dishonest to not show the single-wound chances when this is strongly implicit to be higher? Dishonest would be omitting the double wound chance as this is most relevant to a situation where the unit is no longer useable from a functional state.

    KHD upgrade programs are so useless, though. They don't come with KHD Firewall penetration effect so adding them is like rolling a turd in glitter. Those two profiles will remain the worst profiles in IA, only now 5% better at getting killed by Hacking.

    Oh and while Decoy is reasonable, I think it's as realistic asYu Jing or Pan-O getting a unit with a (non-Combi) Rifle. Just because it's weaker doesn't make it more likely.
     
    #208 Mahtamori, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  9. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    I mean it's not exactly a good face to face for the active turn to begin with, you're likely to spend multiple orders on it, and in that case the KHD has better odds to accomplish its objective because it can be done gradually, one wound at a time.
    But if we really want to look at the WHOLE picture we should also take into account:
    - the likely surprise shot
    - the potential fairy dust against the AHD if it's not a first turn agression.
    - the possibility for the hulang to win his KHD duel and kill his opponent, which is definitely an argument in your favor I'll concede.

    I'm personnaly much more concerned by pitcher + carbonite + skirmisher gunning down the hulang while he is immobilized (worst case scenario being dart and her viral bow) than active turn oblivion. In this case the KHD does help, but if what my opponent wants is to kill the hulang then I'm not sure I want to offer him a more order efficient (even if riskier) way to do it.

    Meh, I'm not sure. They would still need to be wary of repeaters, but at least they could hunt down hackers more easily, even the killer ones, because at the moment your best option is to carbonite the hacker and follow-up with oblivion or good ol' guns, and it's far from ideal. And of course it would depends of the programm they get. Probably not the best solution to IA hacking issues, but at this point I fail to see a good one without either completely reworking hacking or giving IA more non hackable units. They ran headfirst into a wall when they decided to allow the Haidao KHD into fireteams with tinbots B.

    Maybe, but I think holo 2 on the hulang would make it combo very well with zhenchas by cleaning mines (I know, the lu-duan does it already, but the hulang would do it a lot better), and I doubt CB will do anything to help attenuate this weakness. Otherwise they'd be shock immune already.
     
  10. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Well, for me this days paying for timbot B feels like a toll. You're paying for something kind of mandatory 3 points +0,5 caps and It's everywere. You also need to add a Hacker to the fireteam so (arround 60 points total). Meanwhile, the other factions like pano or nomads have Hackers with tinbot A on their own profile that only take 1 slot in the fireteam for just 1p+0,5 cap and can even be played nicely on vanilla on their own and doesn't have BTS 0. Fucking santiagos and Hollows! I fucking hate them as much as Mary or the interventor Killer hacker :rage::H:

    And that's without taking into consideration the toll that a second tinbot+TA on the fireteam represents Paying 7points +0,5 caps for a dedicated irregular is too much to even think about it :astonished:

    But that's what they gave us from the begining. Yujing never was a Hacking master. We are every hacker's wet fantasy. And another useless hyper-expensive hacker won't change it especially on hulang's boots

    If I remember correctly, Holoproyector 2 is not so expensive, 2 or 3 points, no more. It has almost no impact over confronted tests, is mainly an advancing tool with lot's of weakneses.

    But I don't think we'll see another Kanren so soon
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Non-KHD Hulang had a Fairydust/Firewall when I ran the numbers as far as I can remember, but I was looking at first turn aggression mostly - if it's not first turn aggression it will be a landslide victory for the KHD in the comparison because they'll have the ability to get burst advantage during their active turn. I did not account for Surprise Shot, partly because there's an increasing number of KHDs that typically won't use them and partly because my own experience Surprise Shot hacking is a freaking lot more uncommon than HD+/AHDs - as in one of them I haven't used or been the target of that I can remember and the other will typically crop up at least one per game.

    Tactically, a KHD creates more of a bubble around itself most of the time. It decreases the risk of your opponent sticking a Repeater there to control the HI which is what typically happens against the better opponents for me around here. It's not active turn Pitcher + Carbonite + Skirmisher, it's just Repeater. If my opponent wants to shoot a Hulang down, it's a waste of orders going for Pitcher + Carbonite approach considering the burst, range and angle advantage tends to favour the attacker so wasting 3-4 orders to set up a hack that might fail is... let's just say the Hulang isn't typically worth that much.

    That Haidao is the one and only reason for "IA Special Wildcard: Up to one may join"

    I swear, what I'm missing most of all in IA is:
    a) a decent Grenade Launcher to take care of Repeaters and Muttas (or a decent grenade with X-visor)
    and
    b) a way to waste orders for someone trying to alpha strike to box me in
    Everything else is just obstacles to overcome, but those two are the tools I'm missing to overcome obstacles.

    And yeah, keeping the current unit designs I do think most IA lightweight heavies should be Medium Infantry. Not to get access to Bravery (which should be removed) but so the entire force won't be hackable. A proper Heavy Infantry sectorial requires more tools than your typical sectorial to overcome the hacking and price disadvantages, not fewer tools as they designed IA

    --

    But the thread is about the Hulang. Honestly, I don't think the Hulang is anything more than a decent miniature. The role it serves in IA can be whatever role is not currently filled in a specific points interval. Melee fighter is missing, but I miss it inside or near the Fireteams, not out on the field where a full burst of HRMC or cored HMG can take care of whatever a moderately decent Mono CCW is needed for.
     
    #211 Mahtamori, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's not a bad analysis, though I am afraid that Gutier's vision of the sectorial isn't very playable.



    Yes, I am really missing a Wu Ming LGL! Doesn't need to be linked (my usual use of the WM LGL is in vanilla, not Imperial SS), just needs to be present.


    I dunno about dropping the 1W+NWI HI to MI, but yes, IA does need more tools to address hacking. A LOT more tools.
     
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