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Total immunity query

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by theradrussian, May 6, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Dunno if buffing MSV is what we need it's already on the real good end of the scale. I'm more in favour of using it to buff the tools that aren't so hot.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Previously they didn't (without expending them). So are you making the argument that the old SymbioMates were underpowered?
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Which would be fine, considering that I believe Symbiomates actually don't cost any points on the profile.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If they were *more resistant* to Flash Pulses, that'd be fine, but flat-out immunity isn't good for the game imo, as it moves the game more towards listbuilding and counters rather than playing the actual game.

    And making it so you could roll ARM or BTS vs. Flash Pulses (and other nonlethal ammo) would be fine, but the flat-out immunity to it is IMO overtuning. Someone on the errata team (or a warcor with a lot of clout) must have lost a few games bad to Flash Pulse spam.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is baseless. The pie can just be sliced to the unit with the Flash Pulse.

    They shouldn't be that strong. They cost 0 points (or like 1).

    If they were removed due to Flash Pulses there would actually be counterplay.
     
  6. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    Mates cost 3 points per. You are underestimating how optimised the basic unit is.

    Also, even at 3 points they are underpriced.
     
  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    But it just augments/enhances the spectrum.
    So the Flash gets even enhanced, though there might be some kind of flare compensation/protection included.
     
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  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Why is your made-up scenario anymore relevant or better than mine? Why do you assume everyone everywhere else plays exactly like you do? There are also an infinite amount of scenarios where this can happen even if you do play with "hard intent"

    "counter-play" is irrelevant because they're literally everywhere – you generally take them when you don't even mean to. in order for this to be "counter-play" you would have to re-balance the distribution of flash pulses on a whole and force a player to make a more pointed decision in taking them.
     
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Mathematically speaking, no. You could potentially line up a flash pulse and another unit for one specific corner, but otherwise, it's impossible unless they are aligned perfectly vertically (like, directly above and below each other) which would require buildings with interiors which many tables just don't have.

    To do this with an S3 flash pulse bot and an S2 unit due to the silhouette width difference. They can be aligned for a single corner.

    They could start by swapping the cost of paramedic and flash pulse, at least.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I play Onyx and taking enough of them to make it a meaningful defensive option is a conscious decision. I've usually got a couple, but not every list is capable of slowing an enemy down with them.
     
  11. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    you don't need building interiors to have multiple levels. Ground and Rooftop is enough to have two separate troopers cover a corner. you're also ignoring the possibility of TO, camo, decoy, Holoprojector, or just the fact that not everyone everywhere plays as hard intent as you do


    I agree, I think if anything flash pulses could use a slight rebalancing (Though with your proposed change it doesn't effect me much, I play PanO). It's a pretty strong option for every line troop to have a pretty decent ARO for only a point, especially linked.

    Warcor + two 8-point bots is generally enough to annoy an opponent and at the very least steal a third of the orders for a full combat group turn 1, in conjunction with a command token to strip 2 you've effectively stolen a third of their turn if they're running a standard 15 order list. This is something most armies can take for very little investment
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Combined Army, Tohaa and Ariadna can't. Military Orders and Imperial Service can't. Hassassins can't. JSA can't. Only merc companies that can are DBS and Dashat. In fact, something like 17/36 (less than half) of all available forces in Army are even allowed to field a WarCor + 2 8 point flash pulse bots.
     
  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    all armies can do it, some to a lesser effect than others, that's a given. But don't pretend like poor vanilla combined army doesn't get AVA 2 R-Drone and AVA 2 Ikadron, or that little Tohaa can't put a B2 flash pulse as an ARO defense in every one of their triads in the form of a line troop or Kaeltar, who you are taking anyway. If you want to talk about Merc companies you neglected to mention Foreign Co. which has AVA 2 Warcor and an 8-point bot, which is arguably better than what I initially stated.

    What I said in my previous post was merely an example, one that we're all familiar with. Every army has this type of defense in one incarnation or another – some to a lesser extent than others. Point is, although the flash pulse soup may be a slightly different flavor across the armies, they're all similarly low costed.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I gave a response to the statement you presented. It's worth noting that just the presence of Flash Pulses in an army doesn't mean they'll be used for defense; my Malignos FO isn't going to be flash pulsing to do anything except protect himself because he's too valuable. Ditto for my Umbra. Which is a problem, since now they can't use that to protect themselves vs. Dog-Warriors etc.

    Which is why they're used for defense - they have an ok-ish ability to win FtF rolls, combined with a low cost. Active turn pieces are so powerful now that you don't want to expose anything crucial to them.
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Doesn't like 95% of the playerbase play by intent? Also, let's take a look back at your argument:

    Clearly some goalposts have been moved...
     
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  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    This is, literally, using them for defense.

    Our initial argument was regarding counter play and the strength of flash pulses – which we seem to be agreeing on now if im not mistaken, at least on the strength of them. They're good. really good. In a way you're touching on this with this post:

     
  17. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    you're not reading what I posted previous either by willful ignorance or otherwise:

    all of this is still possible if you're playing with hard intent and can theoretically exist on most given tables
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh, I mistyped. What I meant to say was that there's s difference between Flash Pulses being used to defend one model and Flash Pulses being used for board control; swarms of robots is the former, a Malignos or Umbra protecting themselves is the latter.
     
  19. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Camo, decoy, and holoprojector don't break the rules of geometry, and again, basic geometry also indicates that no, it's impossible to cover more than a single point on the plane of the table if troops are not vertically aligned. If one is on the roof and one is on the ground, and a building has no interior, there must be a horizontal differential between the models and there must be a position by which the pie can be sliced. This is stuff anyone should have learned in high school.

    So yeah, it comes back to intent, and goalpost moving. You claimed an infinite list, and so far we've added one item, Hidden Deployment.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @meikyoushisui Technically you can do it via having the S3 standing in front of the S2, or having 2 s2 troopers, with the one in front prone.