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Total immunity query

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by theradrussian, May 6, 2019.

  1. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    So, I just encountered the new total immunity (been busy with other hobbies so haven't had game time...don't judge me).

    I gotta say, I'm finding myself hard-pressed to not see Karakuris as the best TAGs in the game given that it seems they can always use their BTS of 6 vs any attack, and this jumps to 9 in cover while also being immune to AP, DA, EXP, etc etc.

    Add to that 2 wounds and dogged, and you've got something that is making me feel that if it doesn't get changed, I'm going to be playing ikari company like mad (sorry JSA, you just don't do it for me)

    Case in point, using NCA vs JSA my opponent waltzed up to my 5 man link as the 2nd part of his roder, taking 6 combi, 2 HMG, and 2 missile shots to the face (he was hoping to go supp fire). Unfortunately for him, he had taken a wound earlier on but it's kind of disgusting that it too 10 shots to do 1 wound given it was damn 13-14-15 vs arm 9.

    I know that adhesive stops them,. but a burst 1, often limited ammo weapon is not the solution to many things unless you have hot dice.

    Should I just stop the salt and go 2x karakuri FO, 1 ninja KHD, and 4 yuan yuans and embrace the Ikari company style, or is there a viable counterplay to this?
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    A standard, non-linked, BS 13 HMG have 55% chance of putting a wound on a Karakuri. High burst weapons is usually the answer, which everyone brings anyway in on way or the other.

    Then there's the standard hacking. They may have high BTS but that doesn't mean that they don't hate getting in repeater range, where TI does squat all.

    Also, I know it's very situational but MA:4 is quite decent as well as those who have access to it usually have very high CC, so fishing for crits with multiple rolls can work to some extend, as the Karakuri's have meme-levels of CC, even if it isn't the most order efficient thing ever.

    Must say though, I don't have an issue with the Karakuri at all, as I find nearly all their weapon outfit to be lacklustre (except for the heavy shotgun but that requires loads of orders) but I do have an issue with the absurdity that is Mcbroken and he's the reason I've actually started using Major Lunah.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Stay sharp: Foreign Company can make a Burst 2 ADH Kaplan Haris, and QK allows for a Core. In Hunting Party, add +1 to those Bursts, because they are Veterans and get one extra... (QK will go with 1 Medic & 4 engineers in Hunting Party).

    Finally, K1 and linked Missile Launchers can make it hard to you, or the AP+DA B3 linked Tsyklon (Corregidor, counts as Brigada).
     
    #3 xagroth, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  4. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    So, that's just about listed all the exceptions to the rule that there isn't a counterplay beyond "hope to win F2F rolls and brute force their ARM 9 down with an HMG"?

    At this stage "throw yuan yuans at it" seems to be the most viable solution :D
     
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  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Or just use 3 point helper bots against them - in melee!

    If multiple of them approach (from different angles) they can only ARO vs 1 of them.
    Then in CC the karakuris only have a 20% chance to not fail against them,
    and it puts them into IMM-2 without a roll...

    If you are short on orders just do not attack any further,
    leave them engaged for giggles when the enemy has to dicide how to deal with them! :sunglasses:
     
  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    That would be my solution too : throw high burst or warband at them (a single morlock has 45% chance to wound)

    I see how missile launcher with template (multiple hit + no cover) can be a good tool agains karakuri but :
    - K1 won't do them anything (k1 rifle => DAM 13 vs BTS 9 in cover)
    - Tsyklon feuerbach will do less damage than an HMG (lower burst, AP+DA ignored by TI), so what's the advantage over an HMG with 2 more burst ?
     
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  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Me being thinking on other stuff XD

    Congrats, the Karakuri are now like Kill Team's Necrons (for different reasons, however) xD
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  8. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    And better than any TAG in the game for staying power, barring maybe the avatar/cutter.

    10/10 guess they need to shift stock? :D
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Shift stock on one of the oldest models that people probably already have? Then they'd need to increase AVA as well...

    A Haris of them is also much more expensive than any TAG in game and has shorter range at lower BS with worse weapons than any TAG with ARM 8+ in game. It's more STR for your HMG to chew through, but... they're not really out of proportion.
     
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  10. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let me break down the wrong I see:

    1. No one forces you to bring a full haris
    2. They have a specialist profile
    3. worse BS by 1, for the most part
    4. arm 6+3 for cover is better than say, arm 8 + cover vs DA or EXP or AP HMGs or the ever-present smg
    5. they don't care about your E/M jank
    6. One can be put on each flank and you still have orders left for a reasonable list
    7. Dogged

    I think that about covers it. I know you like number crunching so I'll leave the unnecessary calculations out as to TAG armor versus arm 6 and cover, or even arm 8-10 with ammo vulnerability vs constant arm 6 with no ammo vulnerability :)

    EDIT RE shift stock: You do gotta sell 'em to the Ikari company players :P I figured people could tell it was a joke, next time I'll add an /s for the fine folks on here.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Why would I? I think you're being short-sighted and overly reactive. Anything with a wound attribute is significantly better in melee, their rangebands are still worse than most pieces that you'll use to combat them, and they will fold to pressure from basic mooks with fairly small investment from your part. Not to mention they haven't got any option to attack you without LOF and they haven't got Stealth.
    Stop sending Multi Snipers after them, use HMGs, MK12, Red Fury, or even Combi Rifles. Toss smoke, force them to walk up fire lanes where they can't challenge your range band well, hack them, or ambush them in close quarters. They're a toolbox, but they aren't a perfect toolbox.

    Seriously, a hacker and a repeater equipped REM are cheaper than a single Karakuri.
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Fairy Dust: Now the Karakuri is BTS 9 and you have a -3 to your WIP, against hacking attempts. And chances are you will bring a hacker with the Karakuris, because, well, remotes.
     
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  13. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I was just giving a point-by-point refutation of your stance. I didn't see yous say it was incorrect. What basic mooks do they fold to again? Is arm 6 + 3 vs dam 13 such good odds for the combi? Otherwise you're basically saying "throw dice at it with a hope and a prayer", which happens to be what I said in my OP.

    Also, let us not forget each time you shoot them in the active turn is one less order doing the mission, and one more opportunity for them to win the F2F roll. Most cases, a MK12 will have +3 like a combi too, while having better base BS, albeit on fewer dice....unless we factor in supp fire, which makes them the best roadblock i can think of if you lack smoke (hi panO!)

    This isn't salt. I have too many factions to be salty. If this, and linked jammers are the flavor of the month, I'll play those with my Ikari and my haqq and be happy. I just feel it makes TAGs look saaaaad by comparison
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Just check how hilarious some rambos are now :D
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    14% chance to, at no risk, stop this thing in its tracks isn't to sneeze at. It drops if it's not challenged with other AROs, but that's 14% to stop it that you don't get versus Tarik, Namurr, Perseus or even Domaru.
    I can't help that you find a very valid, surprisingly reliable, cheap and accessible solution to a problem to be bad. That's 36% chance for your most basic order mook to deal damage to a Karakuri Mk12 at 18% risk. That's not bad odds for having an 11pts model attack a 43pts model without using tactical positioning to mitigate problems. Get into close combat (which admittedly can be hard for a Zhanshi) and the odds are only marginally worse, but there you'll stand with the JSA player's turn gone completely pear-shaped.

    But by all means, don't simply attack it like an idiot. Try and get around it. A Tiger with a Spitfire has 14% chance against 7% risk if you simply step out of cover so that neither has cover. That's 14% chance to deal 3 STR damage, completely skipping even Dogged.

    This is still a very expensive heavy infantry we're talking about. It's slow, it has low damage dealing potential compared to its cost, it can't join a Core nor have companions other than other Karakuri in their Haris and it exists only within factions with limited competent ranged shooters.
     
    #15 Mahtamori, May 7, 2019
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  16. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-5-7_10-46-27.png
    MK12 karakuri in cover and supp fire vs active turn fusi @16" for some fun

    Oh, well given they're not FAT2 levels of rage inducing I guess that's okay. I'll be converting some soon, then :P
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Active Player
    19.28% Fusiliers inflicts 1 or more wounds on Ryūken Unit-9 (ODD) (Unconscious)
    2.02% Fusiliers inflicts 2 or more wounds on Ryūken Unit-9 (ODD) (Dead)

    Failures
    41.57% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    39.14%
    39.14% Ryūken Unit-9 (ODD) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    Seriously. Your numbers proves, at best, that you're blowing this out of proportion or that it's impossible to win a game in Infinity. I don't know how half the people does it, honestly.
     
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  18. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Ryuken can be templated off the face of the earth, or have a mine dumped at it. Your point? I never once said it lacks a counter, I simply said the counter of dump a million orders into it is dumb, and also serves to make one question why only maybe 2 TAGs can match or trump this durability.

    Or should I say:
    Fixed :)
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're having problems against a 40-point model that has the offensive and FTF-winning performance of a 30-point model, but not its Core fireteam capacity. Congratulations on finding the first model with an ARM value worth spending points on and complaining about it. We're done here.
     
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  20. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    So what, Karakuri are now a good unit (moslty due to the E/M immunity), but:
    - They dont have proper SWC guns like TAGs
    - Cant fight in CC (so can be easily smoked by a sub10 pts warband)
    - Cant dodge mines
    - Cant go into core, so always vulnerable to smoke-attacks and surprise shots
    - effective armor 6 is not enough to tank every mine on a table
    - Dont impose negative MODs by themselves, so cant fight proper ARO pieces unless they get right in their faces

    I am not bothered at all to be honest
     
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