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Total Immunity - ARM/BTS roll choice

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Apr 25, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Stand on it's own =/= extrapolate.

    @ObviousGray They're trying to push their interpretation of the rule on you. I'd recommend just deciding among your friends or for yourself how you'd like to play it. This forum wants to suck you into it's mob mentality.
     
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    see, I disagree here, I feel as though there is a difference between a clause relying on the understanding of the core rules versus another clause within the same set of exceptions
     
  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean exactly. TI has no core rules to speak of, only 4 bullet points.
     
  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean the core rules as in, for any trooper to make an ARM/BTS roll they're usually hit by an attack? If so, we can't rely on that because it's an assumption. The bullet on it's own says nothing about what types of rolls I can substitute for ARM/BTS. Maybe it wants us making a BTS roll instead of PH roll? Instead of WIP for the initiative roll? Any type of action could be substituted using ARM/BTS. We don't know. Stand on it's own =/= Assumptions.

    What if i tell you, we're going to play a game... The game is simple, you can choose to eat an apple or an orange, but then I tell you to eat this pear. What do you do? What does the person standing next to you do?

    New game, you can choose to roll either ARM or BTS, but then i tell you to make a PH roll. What do you do?

    Edited to clear up my point.
     
    #84 Ginrei, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  5. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I...I think I love you!
     
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Too bad he came in here and offered nothing of value. He provided nothing to back up his points. He said I'm invalid on the design premise. Which isn't helpful. How or why might have been appropriate. He simply continued the trend of posters that offer nothing but baseless claims then disregard this when talking about my attitude. I'd suggest he takes his own advice.

    But, you love who you love.
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    We answered calmy the first page, citing literal rules with zero hostility. You then proceeded to go 'duuurh wrong!', to the person who literally wrote the wiki and English translation, who's explaining to you how the trigger works, which is consistent in the entire ruleset.

    You have nothing, my dude. Cut your loses and hope people will forget this embarrassment of a thread as soon as possible. Anyways, I'm out.
     
  8. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So my interpretation is
    EFFECTS
    • When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
    • This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.
    In addition for means that something gets added to the point before. It adds to something already existing so in this case it adds to the first point.
    The condition I read is: When suffering a succesful Attack -or being affected by any weapon or rule- that foreces any ARM or BTS Rolls.
    The result is: the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    Now comes an addition with: In ADDITION players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.

    The only way it makes sense for me if the addition uses the same condition as the first result. I can't find any way that it makes sense that the result of the first point is suddenly a condition for the second.

    To write it in programming language it would look like that:
    If(When suffering a succesful Attack -or being affected by any weapon or rule- that foreces any ARM or BTS Rolls)
    {
    the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.;
    In ADDITION players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.;
    }

    so yes I would totally interpret it that you can choose between BTS or ARM if you get hit by a normal attack.
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    :D <3

    I'm sorry, mate, but it really doesn't work this way in polite society. You can't barge in with your rudeness, arrogance, dismissiveness and demand respect and not offer any at all yourself "until you're treated seriously". People have been really polite and tried to engage you nonetheless, yet you persist in your poor attitude, the only reason for which seems to be the slight of not agreeing with your viewpoint. Persist further and you will get laughed outta town (that is, put on ignore lists by people and not engaged with anymore).

    I'd hate to see that because you're smart and your obvious analytic skills could see good use here. You seem to be so much alike my younger self it's actually painful.

    Eh, I attempted to empathize with you and show you how your behaviour here degrades your chances to get your point across to those people who irk you by "not understanding what you're saying".

    You're invalid on the design premise because one of the co-designers has just explicitly told you that your reading of the rule is neither RAI (not intended) nor it is RAW (not what's written). Yes, you can bend the syntax and semantics to get your reading, but that's how language is, it requires good faith in both the sender and receiver. Once the receiver (you) has "bad faith" (that is, either actually or is engaged in "destructive linguistic testing" of the ruleset), it all goes out of the window. There are precious few, if any, rulesets that are bad-faith-proof.

    Well, that's the end of the road for me with you mate, I said my peace. I hope something of this gets through, if not now, then later on.

    Cheers :)
     
  10. strasse

    strasse Member

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    The first bullet point uses em dashes. They are basically parentheses, so while calling out some specifics, there’s no full stop in there so your interpretation disregards it being just one sentence inside the first bullet point. You are trying to apply something to part of a sentence and not the whole.

    Bullet points are used to list information in no particular order. That’s not a paragraph of information with an ‘in addition’ calling back to the previous sentence. There is nothing to apply to the first bullet because ‘In addition’ doesn’t mean added to, it means something extra. CB have chosen bullet points over a paragraph, presumably to make it easier to break down that information. They could quite happily have given you that something extra as the first bullet.

    Pre order:
    • In addition, a free Saito Togan
    • Artichokes
    We aren’t baking a cake in a numbered list in a specific order, we are just getting the ingredients for the cake. If we are taking one of those ingredients out of the context of the list then, yeah, it’s not going to make sense. All of the ingredients are in the context of the cake.


    If your argument was that you would like a recipe, I can get behind that.
     
  11. Monster

    Monster Active Member

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    This is the most autistic thing I have read in a long time. How is this still a debate. You are wrong. I hope you are just a master troll with a lot of free time.
     
  12. Postmortem

    Postmortem Kazak Arachnophile

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    Why the slur towards individuals with autism? That type of stereotyping is shitty. If you thought it would be funny or make you sound cool, you were wrong.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Are you Triumph's sock puppet? We JUST had a thread where this bullshit came up.

    Stop demeaning me and people like me. Just don't, please.

    @Postmortem
    Thank you for that.
     
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Which proves you and IJW are not listening. I don't want you to explain how you play it, or how you think it's played. I want you to agree, or show why my interpretation is wrong. That way it's identified as another valid way to play or not. If it's valid but not intended, CB can address this at a later time. But you've attempted to do none of those things.

    I've tried to explain this again and again. I've asked this question a multitude of ways. All very much unanswered.

    Rules can be executed in more than one way when the structure of them is this poorly handled..

    Goodbye, you offered nothing of value either.
    My premise is not invalid because IJW says so. IJW isn't always correct. We accept his answers because we defer to someone closer to the source. Again, he's not infallible and shouldn't be treated as such. I've also pointed out the RAI is a side debate that has no bearing on MY ANALYSIS of this skill. If you actually listened to and understood my reasoning, you'd know my reading of language is not what my argument hinges on.

    You and I have a very different definition of polite. I did not barge in with rudeness. I presented a very polite topic and analysis. Look at the responses more closely. None of them discuss my analysis. They all essentially give their own interpretation of the rule and dismiss mine. Starting with the very first post, go read them again if you don't believe me.

    Just because they think their interpretation is correct, it doesn't exclude the possibility my interpretation is also correct. Which means they've been ignoring my points, reasons, and analysis. Whether through ignorance or intent.

    I've pointed this out several times, and I'm still here repeating it. Yet all you want to do is ignore all of it, and tell me my behavior... in the face of this, is the problem?
     
  15. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So my thoughts to your interpretation.

    You say that the second bullet point doesn't stand on it own. Now we got two options, it could refer to the bullet point it came before, if you check my interpretation a few posts up thats how I understood it. In this case the most logical understandting for me is that it uses the condition of the first bullet point. The condition of the first bullet point is "When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls". We come to the result everyone agrees on here in the thread you can use it against normal ammo.
    Second option its an addition to all other bullet points and I come to the same conclusion as the first option

    I can't see how "In addition" would turn the whole first bullet point into an condition. The part about special Ammo is something the owner gets through the skill, the ability to treat it as normal ammo and ignore its effect, its not a condition in any way in my eyes.

    I agree it would be helpful if there is an game example with normal ammo but there isn't so the game example are not really helpful either way.
     
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  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    If 'in addition' simply is another way to say, here's bullet point number two... The second bullet doesn't have the text to function on it's own. Look at that bullet/rule on it's own and try to decide what to do when making any roll for your trooper.

    I'm not sure what else you're trying to say. But you're points seem to only show that the structure of the TI rule makes it broken. I'm perfectly ready to admit the rule (or at least that second bullet point) is broken and doesn't actually function in it's current state. Because if the rule doesn't function as written, we're all just guessing and no one is incorrect or correct.

    But I can't really deny it's there for a reason so I'll try to find it's logical meaning. You've said I can't apply the second bullet to part of the first, correct? My interpretation is applying the second bullet to the entire first bullet. Like multiplying everything within a set of parenthesis. Also, why can the opposing interpretation apply the second bullet to part of the first? They only want to apply it to the conditions.
     
  17. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So you want to simply treat the second bullet point on its own. That just means you can always choose between armor or bts if you need to make a roll as long as not another bullet point doesn't specifically exclude some rolls?
    Still works fine in my eyes, its a complete sentence.

    My point was that if you absolutly want to connect the second bullet point to the first it would make sense to use the condition that is set in the first bullet point and not with the result of the bullet point because you are looking for a condition, everything thats not a condition is not relevant.
    The only condition that exist in the first bullet point is this: "When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls"
    This is the only trigger condition we get.
     
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  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Hi. Wanted to bring my point here:
    The "in adition" could refeer both tho the previous point (an extra point to the rule and independent from the first one) or to the previous resolution (dependent from the first one).
    If we think it works as an standalone point, it works for all ARM or BTS rols, all of them including normal ammunition shots.
    If we think it depends of the resolution of the first one, that would mean is an extra effect, and then we look at the condition, which is never to have non-basic ammunition or so.
    Trying to force it to only the special ammunition is creating a new condition thar was never there.
    Yes. Maybe is a wrong rule dessign, but that is another topic. As it is written, you can chose with special ammunition, and also with normal one.
     
  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Luckily you don't have to find a way for the result of the first point to be a condition for the second. I'm saying the in addition means, in addition to the first bullet, the whole bullet, not a part of it. The first bullet as a whole is a straight forward situation where a TI trooper is hit with special ammo. So it would read like this, In addition to that trooper ignoring the special effects when hit under those conditions, they also can choose to roll against BTS/ARM.

    I've extremely happy you took the time to show your reading in terms of programming language. I've put the bullets into parenthesis as well. I put them like this to reflect the structure of the two separate bullet points. When you have two things separated like this, you apply the wholes to each other, you do not pick and choose parts.

    (When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.) (In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them)​

    I've been treating the structure of the rule with respect by not ignoring it. These bullet points are separated for a reason. I can't assume it's a mistake but if I do, every rule then comes into question. So I can't do that. But I don't try to apply the second bullet as you have because you're ignoring the fact it's placed in it's own bullet. If CB wanted it to read as one long sentence, why didn't they put it as one long sentence? If CB wanted the first half of the first bullet to be requirements for the whole skill, why isn't it found in the requirements field?

    I've respected the RAW. Others have been throwing the RAI in my face regularly, but this is something not everyone playing Infinity has access to. So we must look at this from their point of view. They will have to decide all on their own how to interpret TI. I've convinced my gaming group how it works already.

    This community is ignoring the rest of us by assuming everyone plays their way or will follow their lead. But not everyone is here in these forums to know the RAI. They seem to see this situation as handled because their small community agrees on how to play it. However, they are not the entire Infinity community. I wish they would keep that in mind. Maybe i'll post this particular point in another topic, it's going to get lost here.
     
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  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @ChoTimberwolf sorry I'm trying to catch up on your posts, one at a time, your first one was great!
     
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