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Total Immunity - ARM/BTS roll choice

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Apr 25, 2019.

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  1. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Mate. Regardless of the reading of this rule or the others - you are doing yourself and your points a huge disservice with how you come across.

    I'm an Aspie, I know that I barely have a filter (a bit more so nowadays, but I remember how it was to have none at all) and yet even I still, as it was phrased here, cringe when I read your tone.

    Your logic is sound on the point of semantics. The reading of TI you have is valid on the linguistic premise, yet invalid on the design premise and known RAI (@ijw is as close as we get to the birthplace of the rules here).

    The phraseology, the complete phrases, the structure and the words you choose to color your points with however make you come across as a snide, arrogant and bombastic person who in one paragraph lambasts and utterly dismisses other forum users for the sheer temerity of disagreement with your own premise, call the product "a piece of trash" in another and call for moderator assistance as if you were a helpless victim being injustly dogpiled over here.

    My honest advice - cut out the emotion, leave pure logic. Talk semantics, talk syntax, talk design, talk triggers, talk consequence in the meta. Just not users, opinions, product and your feelings about them. Otherwise your valid goal of rule design analysis will not be achieved.
     
  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    My reading of the text doesn't come into it the same way you're suggesting. My interpretation doesn't hinge on my reading of the text. We actually agree on what both bullet points mean on their own do we not?

    The difference between us is that I apply the second bullet to the entire first bullet. I do this because they are two separate bullet points. You use your reading of the text to justify why you only apply it to the first part, disregarding that they are separate bullets. My interpretation doesn't disregard anything.

    If they were combined both bullets into one bullet point like bioimmunity, we'd be having a different debate where the meaning of the text is completely relevant.
     
  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    But you guys don't respond to logic and valid arguments or evidence. If you did, we wouldn't be where we are now. When many of you have no valid arguments against my points you resort to just saying I'm wrong and this is how it's played. Telling me I'm wrong and giving me your way to play is not a valid argument. So I tell you that, and you get emotional. Then I respond in kind. It's not me that starts this mess. At this point you just say you've already proven me wrong even though nothing in this thread supports that.

    How do you want me to react to all this? Just scurry away and never come back so no one disrupts your precious popular opinion? I try and I try to get you to see what's happening, but you don't. It only makes things more emotional.

    Basically, I'm in a room where many people don't want to listen or ask questions to better understand and just want to shout their opinions. There are some good apples, but there is no moderation to keep things civil. @psychoticstorm
     
  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    The text we're reading is the set of bullet points that makes up Total Immunity. I read that text and come up with one interpretation, you read the same text and come up with another. I'm not talking about the individual words in the separate bullet points, I'm talking about the entire meaning of the rule as a whole. So, yes, your interpretation is very much hinged on your reading of the text. Sorry if I phrased things in a way that did not make sense.

    As has been commented, many of us think that your interpretation does disregard something crucial - the grammatical structure of the first two bullet points.

    The first bullet point does not say that attacks (that provoke saves) with special ammo are treated as normal. It says that if an attack (which provokes a save) has special ammo, then it may be treated as normal. The logical if-then structure of the first point then affects the interpretation of the second point since it's "in addition".
     
  5. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Ginrei, I mean this in the nicest way possible but – you're very harsh. You're responses, the way you dismiss other's posts as "trash", the way you remark how your posts are born of "logic and reason" but other's are based on "nothing". I often find that people match the energy they give out – if you think we are being unfair or dismissive of you, think about the effect of your own posts before you continue the argument.

    nobody wants you to scurry away, we're all here because we have a love for the game and this kind of hobby in general
     
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That is so beyond flawed. How did the argument start for, The Earth is round not flat? How does that play out in your scenario? You all keep believing the world is flat, that's how. Choosing to go with popular opinion because it is the majority is dangerous. Didn't people think slavery was acceptable at one time? I'd recommend you think for yourself please. If it's a topic with an expert in the room and you've never studied the subject, that different. But this isn't one of those times.
    You just don't understand. Yes that sounds arrogant, but how else do you want me to say it? I've explained myself many times already. Yet you're hung up on the grammar of the text itself. Listen please, really listen to what I'm saying. Take your time, ask questions, I'll wait:
    • When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    I agree with your interpretation of the above rule.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    I agree with your interpretation of this rule as well.

    Now, I don't need to concern myself with your interpretation of how those two rules interact on the basis of text or grammar. Because my conclusion is one based on a higher structure. Bullet two applies to bullet one. Not a part, not a piece, the whole/only situation to which it refers. See, no text or grammar discussion needed.

    Your interpretation takes bullet one and two and tries to make sense of how they interact by text alone. If they were written as one bullet I might agree with you. But they're not. Plus, you ignore what the structure of the rule should mean. I do not.

    Once again, the intent of CB could very well be that TI allows for rolling BTS against a combi. However, i see no glaring mistakes in my analysis that suggest i shouldn't take this at face value, text and structure, to arrive at my conclusion. So if CB want everyone to play the game the same way, they need to do a much better job here.
     
  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    And you and many others here don't listen. Have we insulted each other equally yet, can you be done now?

    To the rest of your points, i suggest you reread the thread. A little more closely this time. If you really want the harsh tone and language to stop, i suggest you and everyone else focus on MY interpretation and why it is or isn't valid. Seriously, the way you and everyone else want to interpret TI isn't relevant to this topic. If you want to discuss your interpretation I suggest making your own thread LOL. @psychoticstorm can you make that happen? I think that sounds more than fair. It's been very distracting throughout this thread, no one is staying on topic. If you can clean this up it would be greatly appreciated.
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    :(
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Oddly, I am stuck with the feeling that it is you who is not listening. I'm done here.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Remember this point you made? Apply it to TI's second bullet.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    That bullet does not stand on it's own. It gives no indication as to what conditions trigger it. I've shown you this and you refuse to acknowledge it. So I feel confident in saying that you're not listening.
     
  11. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I really thought you might get it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. You're just like the rest of them. All you want to do is give your opinion. You're not willing to look at the other side and genuinely discuss it.
     
  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I don't know what to tell you man, I stand by it – TI troopers are able to use ARM/BTS whenever they suffer an attack or rule that forces an ARM/BTS roll. The bullet point stands on it's own as long as you understand the general concept that some rules or attacks in the game force an ARM or BTS roll – triggering your TI.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Yeeeeaaah. No.
     
  14. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    So skipping all the fuss, can we block Normal ammos with BTS?
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Yes, you can pick either ARM/BTS, whichever is less bad for you in the moment.
     
  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    If anyone wants my attitude to change, try giving my interpretations and questions the respect they deserve. ANswer them, discuss them.
    The bullet says nothing about when you suffer an attack. It also says nothing about restricting this to instances that force an ARM/BTS roll. IT doesn't tell you how it's triggered. YOu haven't been able to point to where it does without looking at other bullet points. Which is the exact opposite of the definition of being able to stand on it's own.
    Do you really think your statement holds any weight with no evidence to support it?

    There is no instance in this thread where anyone attempts to disprove my point without focusing on the text that isn't relevant to my argument. If you can disprove it without doing that you'll have accomplished something. But i see you'd rather come in here and just say nothing helpful.
     
  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    No, that part of the rule only applies to hits with Special Ammo.
     
  18. Postmortem

    Postmortem Kazak Arachnophile

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  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    @ObviousGray, protestations and strained interpretations to one side, you get to pick anytime an ARM/BTS roll is caused.
     
  20. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Call it a difference of opinions but I don't think its that much of a stretch to extrapolate that when it says "The user can choose ARM or BTS, whichever is more beneficial" It is referring to those situations in which you are forced to take an ARM or BTS
     
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