Discussion in 'News' started by Melkhior, Jun 1, 2020.
It would probably help if all of the profiles were available, just sayin'.
Except maybe you are living in 2015 if you think JY has a CC game
Yu Jing does have a CC game, but it's on par with every other factions' CC game - there's just no longer any risk of accidentally getting a decent CC game.
TAC is better at everything, has nothing to do with USARF and everything to do with CB... But USARF can put 10 bikes on the table, can do different things with those bikes than TAC and still have room for more troops cause Desparados are cheap... That being said, Desparados and mavericks are more effective in N4 which means more competitive vs. TAC...
Alright, hate for the JSA separation aside, they did just get a CC23 TAG that can duo in sectorial. That's pretty good and they never lost access to Ninja's... Sure, Pan-O has more CC troops but Pan-O has more of everything so we can't necessarily compare. I know Pan-O don't have anything like a cheap Warband or access to smoke which is one of the best ways to engage in CC if not in the marker state, Sooo, Yu-Jing can still do the CC game better than Pan-O...
You gotta look at MA units, not just bloated CC units paying points for a stats they won't use. Also, I didn't say PanO did it better, I just said YJ haven't had a CC game since Uprising, and picturing it like CC is Yj's thing is just wrong when so many factions have better CC.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that Yu Jing can do a better CC game than Pan-O? Please start with answering the question of what purpose doing a better CC game than Pan-O serves.
For me the reality of Yu Jing is that very few units actually have a purpose as CC units. You wrote "every unit type except a remote can do CC well" which simply isn't true because for most units it's a complete waste of orders to try and get into CC. There are some edge cases where a CC19 Hac Tao can benefit from entering melee with an opponent, as an example, but this is not where you want the Hac Tao to be.
Because CC in this game is highly reliant on a unit's PH, Yu Jing units with their below average PH will deal very little damage and because of how there is no active turn burst increase in melee and burst 1 is norm, unless you can get CC high enough that a hit roll is guaranteed you will be dealing very very low damage in melee. As such, there's actually very few Yu Jing units that qualify as being good in melee.
Bottom line is that Yu Jing is barely any better at playing the melee game than Ariadna or Haqq or Pan-O. The player who builds with the purpose of getting specific units into melee while the other player don't is the player with the melee advantage and there are no faction other than JSA/Ikari. Other factions like Haqq, Combined, and Shas, etc gets incentivised to do this because they have some very cost effective assassins with good melee ability. Other factions like Yu Jing, MO, Ariadna, Nomads, etc have good melee ability on key infiltrating specialists (e.g. Ninjas, Bandits, SAS) or have it on their core troops (e.g. Knights of Santiago).
There's the crux, I can just say I agree with you right there and stop. We all know the difference between CC and BS, END.
Mahtamori brought up the obvious point of close combat not being shooting, To which I agree, and sure there's bloat, but lots of things in the game have bloat.
What does that have anything to do with you saying "YJ got the lock on CC"? They just don't, that's my only point [emoji23]
1: How do you arrive at the conclusion that Yu Jing can do a better CC game than Pan-O?
Yu Jing has some Smoke, including on one Warband, and a few CC guys with Infiltration and TO Camo. They also have MA3 as standard on their good CC units. PanO has precisely one Eclipse Smoke source, on an Auxbot with poor BS brought as a tagalong to a very elite HI with no special skills, and only gets MA3 on Joan and DeFersen. This gives Yu Jing a good chance to win a CC fight it commits to against most factions, although requiring a narrow set of builds, while PanO pretty much just has prayer and ARM saves if they want to get anything done without investing a mint into one of their worst tactical options.
2:Please start with answering the question of what purpose doing a better CC game than Pan-O serves.
Sadly not much these days. The Crane Agent makes a decent LT option when facing CC assassins because of its non-negligible chance of actually winning a fight with the likes of a Speculo, although the Daoying's Camo is still usually a bit better because Camo does horrible things to Order economy. YJ elites and Monks also have a pretty good shot at getting Looting and Sabotaging done easily where non-Knight PanO is basically screwed. Lastly, the Ninja remains as a potentially usable CC assassin against the enemy DZ, albeit the worst in the game worth considering thanks to its startlingly poor Infiltration roll and high cost.
For me YuJing is right now just the army that can do everything but excels at nothing. There is alot of good profiles in the faction and being able to pretty much participate in all weird things of the game is a strenght of its own. The problem is that this advantage pretty much dies the instance you pick a sectorial over vanilla. (I personally don't care very much for the YJ sectors).
ISS is pretty good. It trades much of the already limited hard defense of Yu Jing to go all-in on an irresistable offense, which is a tradeoff actually worth considering for some who like playing that way. IA and WB sadly give up a bit too much for their respective individual toughness and minor defensive bias.
What do you have in mind when saying this? Genuinely interested in what constitutes defense vs offense. Cause the Yan Huo comes to mind and some deployables for sure.
When you talk about ISS's "overwhelming offense", what do you mean? 8 Kuang Shi fueling a Su Jian? Because that's going the way of the dodo and it's also a meme constraining the Sectorial. If I thought the sectorial would be reworked to account for the lose of the 8 KS shit I would be glad to see it go, but I'm pretty sure it won't.
Other than that I don't get how ISS is about overwhelming offense.
Yeah see that is what I really question. Limit to 15 units, but also everything is getting cheaper? I feel like variety of lists are going to be really limited now.
TBF, lists already were fairly limited in ISS and I'd imagine that you're going to see more variety with the new limit, especially if units get cheaper as well.
They were fairly limited because they weren't effective, now the effective list is no more so you'll just see less ISS. I was playing Wu Ming pain trains, but that's hardly a reason not to play Vanilla instead.
Maybe for ISS, which is good, it's been a while since I made lists for them but other armies IDK.
See this is the sort of thing we question, is the change to crits really so good that the number of viable lists increases that much?