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Too early for August?

Discussion in 'News' started by Melkhior, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    There we have a point the guys in my group discussed a lot: the balancing went down the hill as more and more things were added upon the already existing dynamic...thus creatin an imbalance. Taking things away, downgrading, adding some points...this seemed like a valid way to readjust some mechanics. This could even go so far, to delete some units from Vanilla rosters and make them available only for the Sector lists. Clean things up a little to create room for new and interesting stuff.

    Another thing that ame into my mind while reading some of the posts. Variables are interacting things. It always bothered me that weapons and skills were priced individually, while their interactions basically were not take into account. For example: CH:Camo & Infiltration should cost more, than both skills individually, as their synergies just adds so much to a units profile. Getting a specialist skill on top (like FO +1 points as it is right now) should be taken into account as well. This could get quite complicated as a calculating formula, but still BS 15 & HMG is just so much better than BS 11 & HMG, but this will get reflected in a rather crude "HI pay 2 SWC for a heavy weapon" approach. A Direct Template Weapon is much more valuable on a low BS unit, while I always wondered why I would put down ONE template, while shooting the Spitfire might get 2 or 3 hits on average with BS 14. 2 pistol shots on BS 9 make the template a no brainer. Chainrifles should simply cost more on low BS units, as they partially negate this disadvantage. Most players use Impetous orders or Frenzy to their advantage...the shouldn't be a discount for it. And don't start me up on the SMG thing.

    Hell...get rid of that pesky Flashpulse, basically giving those drones BS13 on Spitfire range...while having Mimetism. There is so much stuff that should be way more expensive. Putting hands on the points formula would basically make all those brutally efficient units quite a bit more expensive, and we wouldn't have room for 15+ units...plus some incentive to opt for different profiles to what everybody fields regularly.

    So this whole thing turns back on power creep discussions and broken skills ;)
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll need to simplify what you mean instead of choosing more archaic words to express it. A 1 on a D6 is more likely than a 1 on a D20 because you've selected target numbers to be unequal, but consider that getting an odd number on a D6 is more likely still and that's using the same dice. Unless you mean that the game's crit and face to face mechanics makes for higher variance and harder to estimate, then I'm truly at a loss for what you mean
     
  3. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this: "in blue",maybe the word I was looking for, "variance", insted of random. I really should have paid more atention in statistics. Of course if we use d20 or d6 we could have the same "randomness" if choose the proper intervals, but when using face to face rolls all the thing gain a lot of complexity and the output not so easy to "predict".
     
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  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Are you guys talking about granularity perhaps?
     
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  5. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I see what you mean. Following that logic, however, any ability that cannot be directly reduced to a variable in a face to face roll would be impossibe to cost, as would any rule that has synergies between units. I can certainly agree that it may be impossible to set a cost that accurately reflects the value of such skills in every given context. However I do believe that points costs can approximate that value close enough to make the game interesting.

    I do not agree that the face to face mechanic is the basic mechanic of the game. It is simply an efficient mechanic for generating the desired outcomes through random numbers. It could just as well have been a roll on a combat results table, like in many historical wargames, or simply calculating the probabilities and mapping the outcomes to a D100 roll. Then there are the unopposed rolls which are, in my mind, just as much a part of Infinity, since they are often a sort of "reward" for a well executed manoeuvre. It is just as viable to view throwing smoke as modifying the MOV-value of the active model, thereby allowing something akin to a longer cautious move in many instances.

    My point is that I see Infinity primarily as a game defined by the tactical manoeuvres allowed by the order pool and order expenditure mechanics, rather than being defined by the way you stack mods and roll dice. The latter could be completely switched out, for another dice system, a card system, a chit pull system or perhaps even a deterministic system, and it would still be Infinity. The former could not.

    TL:DR: I think you are right that it is impossible to set a cost that is absolutely correct for certain skills. However, I do not think this matters for the quality of the game, as long as approximations are "good enough".
     
  6. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    Playing CA I've seen two big issues with elite lists:

    -Fewer orders to work with
    -Greater opportunity cost associated with trooper death (not just points cost, but order pool, smoothing variation in dice over more rolls, etc.)

    Helping these things, I feel like Tactical Awareness is a step in the right direction (and would like to see it added to a lot more HI / elite units across the board). The changes to crit rules also help units with higher defensive stats, which tends to correlate with eliteness also. The first means that fewer bodies can still have a reasonable order pool, and the second that they're a little sturdier when the dice just say "No."
     
    #886 bloodw4ke, Aug 16, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Going to avoid most the topics coming up. Dodge!

    Love the Adil figure. I'm totally getting that set. Love him much more than the Dire Foes but I can use all of the figs! I havn't used CA in a long time but now...
     
    #887 Space Ranger, Aug 16, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  8. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Something not really talked about is the implication from one of the videos... or maybe it was an IJW tidbit?... that the costs associated with high ARM and BTS would be reduced a little, allowing for a general overall increase in the number of higher tier units as well.
     
    #888 Leviathan, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  9. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Personal hot-take with regards to the model cap:

    These kinds of things never end well. They breed resentment and discourage variety in lists rather than encourage it. It would have been nice if Link Teams actually meant something when it comes to that and if Link Teams ceased being 'one per list!' thing. We're talking about supposedly highly trained operatives working together and yet they apparently don't play supernicely together.

    I don't play ITS and won't be playing any games of anything for the foreseeable future thanks to Covid so it won't really affect me though.
     
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  10. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Fari, you did a good job compiling all of this stuff.

    Since apparently I'm required to comment on it:
    The Wildcats look, finally, like the medium armored space commandos they got described as initially. Hopefully the models can do the dossiers justice. Also, no cyberponytail on the art of the HRL model is aces!
    Evaders look great. New Heavy Infantry for Corregidor is woot.
    Cheerkillers feel off. They feel like a one-off character being put in as a unit.
     
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  11. bona

    bona Well-Known Member

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    White noise, albeto.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Might see more factions get White noise. Would be interesting.
     
  13. bona

    bona Well-Known Member

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    You need cheap units to afford the expensive units CB appears to want you to play. You could never afford an Avatar without 8-10 point cheer leaders. There is no way to balance the game to avoid unit spam inherently, hence the 15 unit limit.


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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well there is, the solution is to improve the more expensive units that have to combat spam so they are better able to deal with it without getting run over.

    Granted that would take alot of work but I'd prefer alot of work put into crafting a robust system rather than quick and dirty fixes like this, they'll just cause further problems down the road that we'll be stuck dealing with.
     
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  15. bona

    bona Well-Known Member

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    While you may be technically correct to some point, it take many more rolls of a 20 sided dice to get even statical distribution, then 6 sided dice. That, and the fact that there are relatively few dice rolls in a single game, you can have many games that fall outside the norm, i.e. more “randomness.”


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  16. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Talking about limits... is there any reason W/STR is generally in range 1-3*? If hordes can inflict a lot of damage for X points, units that cost X should be able to survive half of the time (more or less) while killing the horde in return, and die the other half. That is the reason for points atfer all, represent similar power. So maybe the big units are too soft, and range should be bigger, say HI 2-3 and TAGs 3-5.

    *: I know about cases like Iguana 2+2, do not get picky.
     
  17. bona

    bona Well-Known Member

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    That solution only solves the warbands over-running the elite ones. What about the large number of cheer leaders fueling a few elite units. Orders are still the currency of the game, and large unit counts would be rewarded.


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  18. bona

    bona Well-Known Member

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    Units provide orders. Orders are the currency of the game.


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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The dynamic of say a whole bunch of cheerleader units, let's say ISS with their 8 Kuang Shi fueling a Su Jian is a classic example


    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]8
    SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    2.5 SWC | 112 Points

    The thing is this setup has a weak point and it's the Su Jian. The combat group gets exponentially less dangerous if you can eliminate the beatstick they're trying to fuel. Dahshat is another example of this quite often they'll have an entire order group full of basically garbage like traktors and fanous REMs fueling a beatstick, kill the beatstick and they can wind up with a functionally useless combat group.

    The issue that we have in N3 though is that cheap warband/Flashpulse shit with stuff like chain rifles/flashpulses are still too dangerous against higher value models. If you make the elite units less susceptible to getting downed by cheap weaponry like light shotguns, chain rifles, or completely taken out of the fight for an entire turn by flash pulses, it becomes both harder to bog them down fighting low cost models one by one, and also far more dangerous for a lone unit like a Su Jian to try to dive on a lower model count enemy. If he's up against multiple elite models and doesn't get them all, being out of position and dieing in return is a bigger problem to the Su Jian's owner in this case.

    I want to also make the hypothetical balance point that a unit like the Su Jian that has the opportunity to be fueled by lots of extremely cheap orders like Kuang Shi shouldn't be on the same power level as an elite unit from a sectorial that can't get the same opportunity. But we're going into that talk of a system that requires alot of extensive work in balancing.


    This is only true if you have an appropriate model to spend the orders on. You can have a million dollars, but if you're on a deserted island with nothing to spend it on you're as functionally rich as the guy next to you who has nothing.
     
    #899 Triumph, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  20. SpectralOwl

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    Another part of the current imbalance comes down to designer effort. There's been a lot of care and effort put into making scrappy guerilla troops and sacrificial infantry able to take down the big, flashy top dogs like elite HI or especially TAGs, but outside the Combined Army there's no real edge to that high technology beyond a 5-point swing in BS attack effectiveness in the most extreme example of Mimetism-6, BS15 troops against Spetznaz (and that's only if the target is out of cover!) or Veteran Kazaks, as well as Supportware on REMs letting you shift some effectiveness around the board. I predict a change in balance just because CB say they want more big guys on the table, as it means they're thinking about how to make that happen.
     
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