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Tohaa Trident: Operations Manual

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by TheRedZealot, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    You guys are awesome nice update and fast. I play Tohaa for two years now and still I found some intresting info for me. The rotating attack piece is intresting although I fear that my unit would only go unconcious and then it takes two command tokens to, accomplish
     
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  2. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    @boring what do you do if you get second turn? Your list dont seem to have real aro pieces so a killer piece could kill 5+ units of yours taking out key pieces (sukeul etc).
     
  3. Metal730

    Metal730 Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    If you deploy really really conservatively a rambo is going to eat a lot of nanopulsers and flamethrowers trying to get close. Makaul also get B2 eclipse on 16s which is really solid for living.

    Ultimately they could kill 5 models and you'd still have 15. Shuffle some units around and you're back in business to absolutely annihilate whatever pushed up that far when you rebound with angry makauls bludgeoning things to death under eclipse smoke.
     
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  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    You can also often have a Makaul accept death to land unopposed smoke somewhere that shuts down further damage. They're very good for triaging aggressive enemy attacks.
     
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  5. thirteenpixels

    thirteenpixels Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    I think the real danger with that list going turn 2 is you only need to kill 2 things, the Kaeltar and Kamael.
     
  6. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, good luck getting there in your first turn. We're talking about an opponent who needs to cross the whole table and get past about 15 templates in your drop zone bevor he should be able to see even one of the two models.
    If you play a swarm list and have to take the second turn, you deploy accordingly and try to minimize the damage an opponent can do to your order pool, emphasizing the protection of core units.

    If the opponent really gets there anyways, he deserves it. :D
     
  7. thirteenpixels

    thirteenpixels Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    Or, they start next to them. That's a thing :)
     
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Next to both of them? That's on you for deploying poorly.
     
  9. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Two impersonator? Two infiltrator? Combat jump? There are options
     
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  10. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    I've always said that Tohaa's greatest weakness, besides low ARM, below-average shooters and the now fixed lack of anti-ARM weapons (the Sukeul single handed fixed many holes in the Faction), are the danger posed by camo infiltrators and their kind (impersonators, parachuists...): one surprise-shot boarding shotgun o heavy flamethrower from a suicide grunt equals one Triad less.

    The Kawaii Sentinels help a little bit, but our Triads are still vulnerable to suicide teamplate tactics as we lack that sweet Sixth Sense.
     
  11. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    While a well placed infiltrator can be tricky, remember that you may not put a camo marker in mine trigger range of an enemy camo marker. That really goes a long way.

    Also, Infiltrators hate templates.
    Every strategy has its weaknesses, but your scenario to happen sounds rather unlikely.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    All of those should require a very minimum of passing 2 rolls (which is still only 50% if both rolls are on 15s) to be a threat with the exception of the impersonators, which still should need to commit an entire order pool to do it without rolls as long as you deployed decently. I'm not saying it's impossible, it just isn't very efficient generally.
     
  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Thats true, thanks to coc kaeltar are still pretty much must take
     
  14. thirteenpixels

    thirteenpixels Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    I was referring to impersonators but yes you are correct about infiltrators. Dual Speculo, Triple Fiday, Hell even 2 Kiiutan + 1 Greif are all things I've seen. Just something to consider.
     
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  15. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    sorry i didnt notice this question til today. i'm gonna explain my stance in a sort of longwinded way, in hopes that it will be helpful to people that want to try out one of my lists.

    so first off, so you know where i am coming from, i think that having pieces with weapons other than templates for the sole purpose of AROs is a waste of points. i mean this specifically for tohaa. the kamau sniper is beating our best aro piece by 3 points. any other armies TR hmg outshines our chaksa, if only because they can have marksmanship 2. so tohaa already starts with weaker long range aro pieces than other armies, but honestly, i doubt that even if we had kamaus i would bring them. the reason is that long range aro pieces tend to be purely reactive. 90% of their use is deployment, 5% is pure luck through crits. every one of them can be taken down with 2 or 3 orders through various tricks (smoke, white noise, etc.) at best you are expecting them to be an order tax on your opponent (ok you can hope they crit every shot, but mathematically your opponent is more likely to crit than you almost all the time). as they are purely reactive, they rely more on your opponent making mistakes than on you using them well during the game. personally, i would rather not have a portion of my list that only functions well if my opponent plays poorly.

    as to why i think template aros are worthwhile; in order to get to the point where an opponent is eating a template, they have to spend 2-4 orders just moving the piece across the table. a few failed armor rolls to fire makes that order investment a waste. if they succeed, they prolly take another template, and so on, with each template increasing the odds that their troop is dead. having only template aros also usually renders a significant portion of your opponents troops worthless. did they bring units to deal with tags? or to deal with kamaus? or a couple hmg units? if you deploy well those long range guns should have nothing to shoot at (even on your turn, as you advance across the table through eclipse smoke). as for impersonators and ad troops, our long range aro pieces are definitely worse at dealing with those threats than kaauri smgs and chaksa baggage.

    secondly, it seems that some people thing that the sukeul hmg is there to be a key attack piece. it is not. it is meant to be a big target that your opponent wants to kill. if your opponent spends 5-7 orders killing the sukeul, good for you. the attack pieces are the makauls. we have the best cc units in the game, my lists are meant to help them get the job done.


    ok on to the nitty gritty on how i survive going second.

    the kaauris and chaksas are pushed out towards the front. always keep a kaauri as the reserve troop, in case someone is being tricksy with impersonators. most impersonators are already pretty bad against tohaa, kaauri pretty much make them worthless. set up the kaauris and chaksas so that the first time they can be seen, the opponent will be in template range. stagger them as much as you can, if you only have a few buildings go with prone chaksa, standing kaauri, standing chaksa. to an untrained eye makes them look like easy targets for boarding shotguns, but if you position them so that all can see over eachother to the corner anyone shotgunning them is eating three templates in reponse. if you have good spots, put some of the chaksa and kaauri on rooftops prone, in weird ways that only lets them see your DZ. the makauls should be bunched up, preferably on the ground, or at least in a place where they can access a lot of the table. they do not use templates for aros, they throw smoke. any time they get LoF on some random dude, they should throw smoke at their own feet. makauls just want to be alive til the active turn, which has somehow turned them into heavy smokers. the sukeul should be as far back as possible, on whichever flank looks weaker. the draal should be on a rooftop somewhere, prone behind cover if possible. the kamael and fake kamael (taagma) should be prone on rooftops, preferably positioned in such a way that no one else can stand next to them. sometimes that requires some chaksa sitting up there with them. its worth it to make them not targets of warbands. both kamaels should have at least one kaauri and chaksa near them protecting them. the kaeltar goes wherever, just sitting blocking advancement.

    the most likely scenario will be your opponent will have 12-14 orders (drop two from the big group), which isn't really enough for a safe push through the kaauris and chaksas, especially if all they get to see after pushing across are some makauls that drop smoke immediately. big guns shouldnt really be a threat to you, unless your meta is not using at least 25% table coverage in your DZ. aggressive opponents might just say hell with it and send a five man across the table, and you will prolly lose 4-6 troops, but usually only chaksa and kaauri die in that sort of assault, the makauls dropping smoke on 16 with 2 dice is just so reliable. more defensive opponents will move up the table a little bit, and put a bunch of guys in suppressive fire, which is really just great for you, as having them closer just makes it easier to stab them. in objective based missions most of the time ive seen people push forward a bit, try to get some early points, and then get into defensive positions.

    less likely scenarios:

    a tag list/ single combat group: most tags are trash against this. they dont have the orders to deal with the sheer number of guys present, and if they do come across the table to kill things they just get killed by makauls on your active turn. single combat groups run into the same problem, if they bring a 5-man across, that five man just gets killed on your active turn by makauls.

    super jumping shooters: so super jumping shooters can be a real prollem, as they can almost definitely find a way to see your guys in good range bands for them to shoot you. i would say in matches where you see one on the table or are pretty sure your opponent is bringing one, have makauls standing up to take aros, so that they can throw smoke down to cover your team. its not really that great, but they are still more likely to work than any of our long range aro pieces (smoke is always gonna be b2 hitting on 16s).

    indirect fire lists (guided/spec fire): if your opponent has indirect fire on the table (you should be deploying second if yer going second, right?) deploy your guys spaced out a little bit, but prolly leave the kaauris near the chaksas, so that they get killed first. i hardly ever see indirect fire, but its prolly a safe bet that your opponent can kill your Lt. if they spend their turn doing it. i would say an indirect fire dedicated list is just a more all in on going first version of this list, so good for them if they win?

    impersonators/ad troops: impersonators and ad troops bypass long range aro pieces already, so its always better to have kaauri or chaksa against them anyways. kaauri pretty much shut down impersonators, and ad guys are gonna hafta gamble killing some 10/12 point model in exchange for an auto hit template.



    again, this is all just my opinion. this strategy works really well for me, but maybe it is just too alien a playstyle for you. i hope this helps clear up some stuff for people tho, and ill just say im open to any questions about it.
     
  16. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Thanks for this great explanation. You are right this playstyle is alien to me thazs why I am asking and trying it out to find if I enjoy it from time to time. I guess my table doesnt habe enough cover in the dz :)
     
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  17. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    If your local has a lot of tables where someone with an hmg can shoot all the way across from one of the flanks, that is a problem. Really you should have at least 3 buildings that you can have dudes stand behind/on, as well as at least 2 pieces of small scatter terrain that you can have guys be prone behind. More is better obviously, but even if you can only meet that minimum, you really need to make that there isnt a firelane all the way across your back board edge. Firelanes across the back board edge are a huge disadvantage if you are going second, as any decent shooter that gets on you flank has decent odds to really do a lot of damage before you get a chance to respond.
     
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  18. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    Consider what? Im not sure what you are talking about.

    How are they deploying two impersonators right next to both of the targets they want to kill? Are you playing someone where you are going second and deploying first? Are you playing on maps with nothing in your DZ? Why did you choose a map side with no terrain if you had deployment?

    If your opponent puts down one impersonator, put two kaauri near it, as well as the kriigel. Dont put your Lt. near it. its really as simple as that. If yer playing against triple impersonators you pretty much won the game already by having four kaauris as well as the kriigel.

    If your opponent puts a bunch of infiltrators down, dont put your lt. near them. Put some kaauri and chaksas to block their advance. Put the kriigel down to catch them with eraser aros.



    Also, just to be clear, the first list i posted doesnt even have a CoC kaeltar. It just has the taagma pretending to be a kamael and the kamael. The kaeltar in the list is bringing bombs not mates. I guess a person could get lucky with a single speculo killer, but that requires them to go first (prolly 50/50), and also guess correctly on which target to kill (50% likely), and be close enough to attack immediately, and have the lt. lose the face off (75% likely) and the armor saves (70% likely), which means all other things being equal you could lose your Lt. ~12% of the time if your opponent has an impersonator that they are able to put right next to your lt. Im ok with those odds.
     
  19. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    I got my own table but still learning how to best build it ;)
     
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  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    So I just wanted to touch on this - while I agree with you on table composition as a matter of personal preference, how tables are set up is probably the biggest local point of difference you'll see in Infinity and I think it's important to not just say 'you should set up tables in a way that allows/optimises for how I prefer to play the game'.

    Sometimes people will find themselves playing in shooting galleries or enfilade hellholes and if that's something that's locally common, advice we give should adapt for that.
     
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