Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by RobertShepherd, Apr 16, 2019.
Don't mind me ;)
Its a nimbus plus not a nimbus zone
We played the same way until it was explicitly ruled otherwise in the last FAQ. It's very much part of the game's rules that you can force change facing AROs from someone about to get B2 CC22 PHY17 viral weapon attacked by a makaul - unless or until they change it again.
Just for clarity the full interaction is in case others aren't familiar with it:
Triad of Makaul, Makaul, Sakiel activates (just for example). Two makauls, under cover of smoke, both walk into melee with an enemy. Sakiel just moves around inside enemy ZOC. Neither makaul has provoked an ARO because stealth means you don't generate an ARO even for moving into base contact provided you don't also enter LOF, but the sakiel has generated an ARO, which the enemy must now declare or lose their ARO entirely.
So, the enemy declares Change Facing (being a legal ARO against the Sakiel), and then the Makaul that's leading the triad declares whatever his most horribly dangerous attack is with whatever combination of martial arts and ikohl he might desire, stacking either a net -9 or -6 on the enemy dodge depending on which martial art level he picks.
You don't get to repeat the process because the Makauls will generate AROs in subsequent orders that they begin in CC, but on that first order you can 'clever girl' the absolute bejesus out of someone.
Said it before but it bears repeating. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Makauls had zero problems murdering things in CC before the dumb FAQ. Just don't do it.
This interaction is hard not to do - you'd need to optionally turn off your stealth each time you move a makaul into melee whenever it's part of one of our more common links in order to not have this interaction arise. Which is your prerogative, of course.
Given my druthers I'd much rather have seen the FAQ go the other way, but until they reconsider it, it's very clearly in the game.
i see, interesting, but can i declare attack CC even though i cant aro against that makaul, and then, in the second part of the order because makaul hits me with cc, my Attack CC becomes valid?
or its just nonsense? haha
i asked in my infinity group and someone said that he can declare any ability and then if the requirements are met, it becames valid...
i dont know if you understand what im talkin about, its hard for me to explain in english haha ^^
No, your ARO needs to be valid when they are declared. You need to declare the target of the attack when you declare the attack, and at the time, the makaul isn't a valid target.
You can't declare a shooting ARO at a guy you can't see so you can get him if he moves into LoF, can you? (No.) This is the same.
then one situation, u have ko dali in active turn vs dakini, there is a smoke between them, if u are in the ZoC of the dakini and u turn off stealth, ur first part of the order is to move, the dakini cant see you but u have stealth turned off so the dakini can only aro change facing and reset, then ur second part of the order is to shoot at him, the dakini cant shoot back because he has already aroed no? thats a little broken dont you think?
if the dakini is in suprresive fire he has to break the suppresive state to make a change facing because the suppresive is not going to face to face with that smoke between no?
That would be the correct way to play it.
Yes, this makes Ko Dali very effective, but it also means getting both Ko and Smoke very close to the victim. You can do this easily with a Speculo and Ko Dali but then you're looking at a significant investment.
It's also not foolproof, if that Dakini was in a Fireteam with 6th Sense 2 it could delay it's ARO, it also doesn't work against mines or enemies MSV2+.
I've fallen recently In love with the gao rael spitfire, sakiel paramedic and makaul triad.
You have the Eclipse when needed but for firefights I use the Nimbus Plus. It nullifies the benefits of a core (even more, it puts a - 3CD total) just for giving up one dice.
So most times you're 4dice vs 1instesd of 5 vs 2, and you can shoot cores because ssl2 doesn't work on this, as opposed to the regular smoke.
It’s a lot of setup for a great shot, it’s perfectly fine.
You could also just shoot that Dakini from 9 inches away and it wouldn’t even get an ARO.
Nimbus Plus also gives you a -6 MOD to BS, so it is not 'just giving up one dice'.
UPD: And if you think Gao-Rael's visor ignores the MOD, I suggest you to read the Nimbus Plus traits a bit more carefully (especially the part where it states it has Reflective) :P
Ah shit true. Pity.
just to be clear.
this interaction doesn´t work on units with SSL 1/ SSL2 right?
this because for those units stealth doesn´t work. am'i correct?
Read this and it's super cool, thanks! Just had a few questions, mostly about the last example. Im still trying to get a good grasp of the rules, so forgive me if some of this seems pretty obvious. You have the Makaul popping into the nimbus plus, and then using his heavy flamethrower on everyone. Then you say that you split the burst, and the fusiliers dodge on 4's. Why do you split the burst, and what's the math that gets them down to a 4 PH roll?
Putting it into the context of an order can help it make sense, I think.
1) My Makaul activates in Nimbus.
2) I ask for AROs. My opponent declares dodge (since Nimbus is a Very Low Vis Zone and a Saturation Zone, he would be shooting on B1 even if linked and with a minimum -6 penalty for Nimbus. I still would probably shoot as the player with the Fusiliers in this situation, unless they were all lined up and I really needed those orders for someone. But remember declaring different AROs with different Fireteam members breaks links apart, and if I lose the 4-man bonus, a Template weapon coming from behind me becomes more scary.)
3) I declare BS Attack with a Direct Template weapon. If I put my burst in one place, I will still take the Saturation penalty because it effects all BS Attacks (and this is one of the weird idiosyncrasies of the rules, template weapons still make BS attacks even though they don't use the BS attribute) which would reduce my Burst to one. But since saturation applies to each *volley*, splitting my Burst keeps it as 2.
This is one of the places that I'm not sure if the rules completely spell out, but since Saturation reduces the Burst of attacks directed at the same target, I need to have two different valid targets to not get penalized by the Saturation Zone. And to make a target valid, I need to be able to draw LoF to it as part of my attack.
Math: A fusilier has a base PH of 10. This is reduced by 6 down to 4 because of the Very Low Visibility Zone generated by Nimbus. Unlike the Smoke Penalty, the Nimbus Penalty applies to all f2f rolls, including dodge.
Excellent response from @meikyoushisui , cheers :)
Awesome! I missed some things (I.E. thinking Nimbus was just a low visibility zone). Just one more question
1. If you move your Makaul to move through the targets front arc to just outside of the targets front arc, are you considered to be firing outside of their LoS? for an additional -3 dodge?