Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.
And my wish is that over the next year that doesn't change.
For the last what? 5-6 years they've been pretty clear they want you to be able to use your models old or new. I reckon they aren't about to change that mind set any time soon.
This is the first time going into a new edition with these discontinued forces, its easy to say "Just keep using these rules we've already made and don't expect more" but I can see an issue where they don't feel like re-balancing points, costs, and abilities for a faction that literally cant sell models a year from now.
I'm not saying it will happen, I just thought this was a wishlist thread and I was laying out my only meager wish.
Actually the switch from 2 to 3 saw the removal of the Exrah from Combined. Though they weren't a full army the 3 units that were removed conveniently had other comparable profiles added to CA. Now those new profiles since then have received new models but there were was a clear proxy path forward for those players.
Theres alot of confusion on the topic lately and think people are mostly just trying to reassure everyone that based on what we've seen and heard so far CB seems to prefer that people still can play with their toys.
First of all my bad i meant to reply to Redzealot as this is his idea but it was early and i was trying to also head off for work. No I agree Fireteam: Triad is super simple and its caused almost no confusion when I've explained it to all the people that I've done demos with, or brought into the game and this proposed idea would make it more complicated and less special. Honestly if it weren't for the fact that a decent portion of the models are old (and the obvious discontinued production many things) I'd say there a pretty good get started faction.
Tohaa were my first army, and I think the Triad Rule is simple enough to grasp, and I would hate to see it go, especially when it seems like varied link options are the new norm, and changing the Triad rules in would only make them more complected not less.
I also tend to run triads without specialists, and sometimes without a Makaul, I would be a little annoyed at having to shoehorn them into the link, (especially when Makaul are one of Tohaa's most complained about unit).
Tohaa is my first and pretty much only army, had no real problem with the tohaa rules I have way more problems understanding the enemies fireteams. "This is my core, that unit is a base trooper of my core thats a wildcard and that I am pretty sure is also allowed to get into core...." Tohaa just expect that anything that isn't camo or has G:Synch units can go into triads and you are nearly always right
Besides, right now when you handle your oponent the Courtesy List, he/she only has to look through the profiles and look at the Equipment and the Fireteam:Triad rule.
- Does it have the Fireteam: Triad rule? If it is not currently in a Triad, it may be in the future.
- Does it have a heavy weapon? It is a shooter.
- Is it a Paramedic? It is the healer/specialist of the Triad.
... and things like that. Pretty simple, and the oponent doesn't have to check the Army, the Wiki or the pdf files to find the list of wildcards and find out possible combinations.
Right now with the wildcards you can have a link that doesn't have any models that originally comprised the link due to wildcards overriding slots. Triad is crazy simple compared to explaining that "this Haidao is taking the slot of a zhansi and so is this remote and this remote but it's different, trust me don't worry about it".
The June July FAQ Updated this. See below for reference:
To late. :(
Alright, here's my very very wishful N4 Tohaa Wishlist.
Tohaa internal balance is arguably the worst in the entire game, but honestly I would just be happy if Tohaa is still here in N4. Some units are basically unplayed (Longarms, Aelis, Kerails, Kotails, Kumotail, Taqeul, and Igaos) because Sukeul + Kaeltar + Makaul triads are just too good. For the units that are bad, here's stuff I'd like fixed:
Aelis: She has an interesting niche w/ Sensor + KHD, but I would rather she have Symbiont Armor than Regeneration since cheap wound vs. expensive thing that has a low chance of being a wound.
Igaos: They’re too similar to Makauls and you’re spending orders on triads with Makauls. They need to get something to differentiate themselves beyond where they deploy -- more traditional skirmisher specialist options, minelayers, d-charges. And Frenzy discount on them is cool, but CC values having not crazy prices and being able to recamo Igaos would be even better. The comparison to the Clipso really hurts here, the BSG Clipso is cheaper and more potent in almost all cases.
Kerail: The Kerail feels like a worse version of the Rasail but with smoke on half the profiles. I really don’t see why these get taken at all except for Smoke + MSV2. It’s not like Tohaa has any shortage of Eclipse Smoke. It’s sad because the sculpts are gorgeous. Giving the Kerail Forward Deployment would make it more interesting and more playable -- it would also make it feel more similar to the K9 Strelok or the O-12 Team Sirius.
Kotail: The thing about the Kotail is that I don’t feel like it’s actually that bad. A bit pricey for the package, but just completely beaten out by the internal competition of fire superiority pieces in Tohaa for the big guns, and by the dirt cheap TO skirmishers for the specialist option. I feel like he's just a couple steps away from being really interesting and cool, something like stratuscloud on the dual combi profile (for 1SWC even) or some weird equipment that doesn't show up elsewhere in Tohaa would be great.
Kumotail: Tohaa has a unique relationship with doctors and engineers, in that it doesn’t really use them at all. The Kumotail is a bit more playable in Spiral corps, where she might have something to doctor (and by something, I mean the MSV2 Taagma). In either case, making the Kumotail into a specialty Pheroware tactician focused on repairing Symbiont Armor units would make her much more playable, even at a much higher cost.
Longarms: I don’t even need to explain this one. They’re overpriced shitty shooters with questionable loadouts. There’s no reason to ever take one of these in any mission, ever. This unit should just be reworked, it was DOA.
Taqeul: Yah I don’t think I can offer a fix for this, but some have suggested he be a Tricore platform in vanilla (which would be fine given the arms race of the last year, IMO).
Interesting to see experienced players opinions, I've just been getting started with Tohaa and the Kerail has been a top performer for me.
The Kerail with Surda is fantastic, but the Mutan is a bit too expensive to be used over the Surda.
Giving the Taquel Triad would make it fantastic. Its current problem is that it is a solo piece, which often struggle for space in Tohaa armies as it is, and it does not have enough to make it stand out as a great solo piece, especially with 4-2 movement. If it was in a Triad it could be an effective gun fighter that also provides the triad with a bit of point defense from units trying to sneak up on them.
Likewise, especially for cost. Worth noting that specifically the Surda profiles are very good; the Mutan struggles.
Big long balance proposal lists are always an interesting read because often you'll go through agreeing with a lot of it and then hit a 'wait what' moment where the author has had a very different experience to you with the same unit (maybe better, maybe worse, can be a product of tables or local players or any number of things) and it just highlights the extent to which the game can be played very differently with the same models under different circumstances.
The times I've used the Taqeul I made it work (more or less) when paired with other unlinkable troopers, like Kawaii Sentinels, so you can move them around the table with Coordinated Orders and then put them all in Supression Fire. It is not an optimal trooper, but it's not bad at all, and in other factions they would probably be popular. Same with Aelis.
The bigest problem that both the Taqeul and Aelis share is that they are expensive when compared with other Tohaa troopers. If Regeneration (and Automedikit, by the way) was either cheaper or more useful, this troopers would be very good.
This is a very good point. When Robert, Borings, Wayward and I all sat down together and started wandering through units to rate them I was genuinely surprised at a lot of the decisions about different units that people were calling. There was a number of units that often seem to be considered under performers that I find typically out perform other options for me. There is a lot that goes into infinity games and meta, play style and terrain all play huge roles.
My 2 cents to make gorgos useful :
- immune to hacking but keep fire vulnerability (fluff and counterpart without to up the price) and wounds (even STR is better)
- keep the chaksa
The "beginner problem" of tohaa is not a complexity of certain rules but their overall idea. Comparing to other armies with more straightforward and more understandable playstyle (due to TRbots, HMG in 5-man links etc), playing tohaa is like a constant mindgame suitable for experinced players who are able to keep in mind all pros and cons of their own and opponent's units. Like "writing on a green paper", as Bostria said. My first army was MRRF (RIP) and I've been struggling for a very long time trying to find my own playstyle with tohaa (I'm not very active player though). The only thing held me here is that I really love the concept and flavour of this race, their visual style. We don't have firepower and armor superiority, but our advantages are toughness, flexibility and some aces in the hole. And that's very cool I think. But just unification and symplifying of some rules can't make tohaa more attractive to newbies.
Actually, I hope that the relase of Spiral is a first step in this direction, so that people can safely taste some tohaa and not throwing away all their favourite toys... Time will show.
I'd rather say "do not ignore us".
All we really need now is a fresh eye and rearrange of all we already have. So that Longarms could find their purpose...
EDIT: and a box of Sakiels, just as a gesture of a goodwill :)
We tried to play sakiels on all the lists of the games of the campaign to show support on the "sakiel box"