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Tohaa in N4

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Literally just making a symbiomate give a model an extra wound is a... fascinatingly simple idea, actually. I think that makes them slightly weaker than they are now or were before, but it's also some absolute minimum rules overhead and hugely straightforward to intuit and use.
     
    ChoTimberwolf and borings like this.
  2. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute... you say that want to make Tohaa's rules more approachable and easeir to understand.
    To achieve that, you propose to turn the most simple and easy to understand Fireteam (everything with Fireteam: Triad can link together, no exceptions) into a list of exceptions.


    Please, explain me how

    -----------------------------------
    Modified Fireteam: Triad where all troops must be of the same type
    Except this list of Wildcards

    • Kumotail
    • Kosiul
    • Taagma
    • Keesan
    • Neema
    -----------------------------------

    is easier than

    -----------------------------------
    Everything with Fireteam Triad can link together
    -----------------------------------
     
  3. saint

    saint Charming, but irrational

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    Perhaps i'm not getting something here, how is this easier? instead of a very simple "anyone with this ability can link with any othert" you made it "normal fireteam rules of construction apply except with these certain models who are wildcard".
     
  4. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Currently Fireteam: Triad is not "normal fireteam rules of construction", because you are limited to 3 models when building the Fireteam and you can have as many Triads as you want. You don't have to worry about which models can or cannot be included, you are not limited by a fixed number of Fireteams, you don't have to worry about 4-man or 5-man Fireteam bonus, you don't have to think about what happens to the Fireteam if a certain member dies...

    So currently Fireteam: Triad is more simple than Fireteam: Core, Haris, or even Duo.
    A troop has Fireteam: Triad -> it can form Triads with two more troops that have Fireteam: Triad. That's it.

    Really, Fireteam: Triad is stupid simple. Changing it to something similar but limited to certain troops and then adding a list of wildcards makes it more complex, not easier.
     
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  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The Triad is a theme that is an inherent part of Tohaa society.
    They live their whole lifes in (changing) triads.
    It is by far not only about the military (like Linkteams in other factions).

    Why making it more complicated,
    instead of keeping what works fine, fits the fluff, and gives the faction something 'special'?
     
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  6. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Triads are the main reason I am playing Tohaa I love the theme of 3 "friends" working together moving around etc I love the flexibility of being able to get a fighter and a specialist and a makaul to the objective. I would love if there are even more units with triad, Kiel, Taquel, Gorgos xD
    EDIT: actually I would be fine to loose the triad boni (burst increase) just moving 3 units with one order is nice. Take the burst boni away but give us a taagma tri core, that could be intresting
     
    nethervoid likes this.
  7. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Taquel and Kiel totally agree, Gorgos's fluff telling us thet they're deviant individuals that really want to be solo :) (and even after they have their little friend chacksa by their side)
     
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  8. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Gorgos got an G:Sync unit so its never solo and as long as it got g:sync it can't be in any fireteam ;)
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  9. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    yeah, just edited my post same time you mentioned this :)

    But original idea of TheRedZealot is to make Tohaa more popular among the players, its definitely good intend, but rather butchering triads, it would be good to figure out what's issue with Tohaa first and then we can try to make up good proposal to fix this, if it fixable at all.

    PS
    Just to make this though vocal that almost all already aware: Spiral Corps is kinda attempt to fix this already... And maybe (I say maybe!) we even should focus on making SC to be new sweet home for all we love in Tohaa
     
  10. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    My "problem" (*) with Spiral Corps is very simple: the models that made me start playing Infinity where the Gao-Rael and Gao-Tarsos, and I still love those sculpts.
    While I appreciate the new toys that came with the new box, I want to keep playing "classic" Tohaa.


    (*) I don't have any problem at all, it's just a figure of speech :p
     
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  11. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Yeah, Im not into Gao-Rael much, but Im missing Gao-Tarsos in SC
     
  12. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Spiral Corps is missing makauls so a no from me ;)
    I think there are many reasons why Tohaa isn't popular for new players generally. For once no one would advice playing Tohaa because the future of Tohaa is bleak. Another reasons is that many players dislike playing against Tohaa, isn't that right @Hecaton .
    So what I think what would help is for one having a concrete future for Tohaa. And the other is make Tohaa more fun to play against. Take out the mates or rework them completly. Thats probably one of the main reasons Tohaa is so disliked.
    Another rework idea for mates: units with mates can try to regenerate symbiont armor once, roll on their wip to regain one point of SA. That would need an full order to do.
     
  13. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Why don't ask to add them to SC?)
    I heard interesting suggestion make mates bearers of support pherowares, so maybe add this trick to revert s.armor state as new p.tacticts?
     
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  14. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Taht would work too, another idea I just had is that units with mates, don't loose their stats if they "loose" armour. So they get the wound but keep all of their stats, skills etc that would be a buff to all units that loose quite a bit with the symbiont armor. neema would keep her armor and bts etc only question would be if it also works with gorgos xD
     
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Well I'll note my initial suggestion was that everything except: Kaeltar, Kamael and Makaul should be restricted. Though I do recognize there is some arguments for other units to get wildcard as well.

    The big change isn't in how the rule is constructed but it's in aligning to the expectations of others and reducing the number of potential combinations (ideally without greatly reducing the typically used combinations). Right now anyone not playing Tohaa has to understand what every single unit in the army with Triad is to understand the possible Triads combinations that they'll see on the tabletop. Triad also pretty specifically already works as a series of wildcards but doesn't use that terminology.

    Changing it in this way means:
    1. Opponent's see more terminology they're familiar when looking at the Tohaa Army
    2. Players only need to understand what/how the Line Troops, Warbands and Kaeltar (arguably the most notorious model in the Tohaa army.) are to make it all slot together.
    3. Limits the number of units required for playtesting.
    The rule itself is subtly more complex but on the tabletop we will be reducing the number of variables going into the creation of triads.

    I understand the fluff but theres how many units that are supposed to all be degenerate scum that don't triad? What about the Diplomatic delegates they're clearly highly functional members of society but they have no desire to join a triad?

    I stand by the argument that this is an overall simplification of the rules. We change things with minimal overhead and greatly reduce the breadth of options without negatively impacting the choices typically taken.
     
  16. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I guess it is because they are so highly respected for their ability to lie even with their pheromones.
    How much can you trust a professional liar?

    But you are right!
    Fireteam: Triad should be a racial ability that ALL tohaa share!
    Great idea!
     
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  17. Zachilles

    Zachilles Active Member

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    If the goal is to try and get more people to buy tohaa then its actually really simple, just make sweet models. I get that CB is tired of working through tohaa's issues right now but great models always sell, Tags are some of their top selling units and they see very little play in competitive environments.

    I personally don't want to see a huge shakeup in Tohaa's rules, my main wish is just that vanilla Tohaa actually exists in N4.
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    They've already said they're not removing Tohaa as a faction from the game, repeatedly.
     
    saint likes this.
  19. Zachilles

    Zachilles Active Member

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    They also said repeatedly at interplanetario "Spiral is tohaa", I hope that vanilla Tohaa with all current available units exists in N4
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    That's because they consider Spiral to be a Tohaa sectorial, it's under NA2 due to fluff reasons (the Triumvirate don't like to advertise their presence).

    They've been very clear that the "temporarily out of production" (their words) Factions aren't going away.
     
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