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Tohaa in N4

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    With some new players still coming into the Faction, and with Tohaa itself proving to be very competitive in tournaments, even without resculpts Tohaa would indeed receive a warm welcome if they restock it at some point in the future.
     
  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I think its important though that we approach CB with a positive tone. Think about how rough it must be somedays for the CB Guys and Gals to come into work and look at some of the toxicity in the forums/on facebook/wherever. We want to put our best foot forward and show why Tohaa fans are amazing and why it makes sense to keep buying into the Hype.

    Even think about Spiral Corps. Spiral was CBs way of trying to give us a gift, or maybe showing us what they wanted Tohaa to be? Maybe that gift didn't meet everyone's expectations but if your parents get you a gift and you dont like it you don't spit in their face right?
     
  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Until you opened the box it was "year of the tohaa"? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    image.jpeg
     
  4. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Hm...Discussion going a bit in a wrong direction as for the topic about N4 wish-list, don't you think?

    Ok, what Im personally want to see in N4 Tohaa (and/or Spiral Corps):
    - more pheroware units/troops profile options
    - pitcher-like nullifier
    - additional exotic weapon access like vulkan shotgun (I dont know why I love this weird thing)

    Not mentioning profiles cost/efficiency rebalance which is one of core priorities for N4 as far as I heard
     
  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I think that Pheromonic ammo is a nice 'signature' feature for Tohaa (and Spiral).
    What about a Pheromonic Sniperrifle or Pheromonic Mines?
    Would have some interesting tactical impact, too.
     
    meikyoushisui and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  6. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Not sure about phero sniper (according Phero-booster it may function somehow as multi weaponry), but as for mines I would say no, BUT! Tohaa already have SymbioBugs (also phero ammo), so increasing availability of those would be nice, indeed
     
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'd love a Medium multi style Pherosniper,s something like DAM14 lethal Phero B2, DAM16+ (or maybe even 17) non-lethal Phero B2.
     
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Something I've been thinking about is that the Pherobooster only exists on a single model at the moment (unless I'm missing something somewhere). It could either be done away with for simplicity, or expanded out to other profiles to give Tohaa another unique element.
     
  9. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

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    Hatail Spec Ops can take Pherobooster and also Stratuscloud, both unique equipment,I know, is not a unit, it's a custom character, but there it is :p
     
  10. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    According Phero-booster analogy: Phero B2 DAM15, Phero B1 DAM17, Stun B1 DAM15
    Well, it may be just a coincidence, but Kriigel is also offensive pheroware tactics user, so possibly we'll see more Pheroboosters with new agressive pheroware tactics users. Or all pheroware tactics (kaauri sentinels for the moment) will got this in N4... hm. Im already love this idea, by the way
     
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  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I love the smattering of one-off Pheroware tactics in Spiral. It helps make units feel more unique without adding too much complexity.
     
  12. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Spiral should really be a part of Tohaa, not a NA2 army.

    If CB wants to keep Tohaa different from the other factions, they can still do that. There are now plenty of setorials that have units that do not go into the main faction. Spiral should do just that - be considered a Tohaa setorial, but base Tohaa will not have access to a lot of its "extras".
     
    Abrilete and nethervoid like this.
  13. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I've talked about my general thoughts and desires for Tohaa in the past. I suppose I'll try and succinctly put them here.

    I have three big desires:
    • Simplify Triad system to match other armies more closely. All Units can triad with themselves only. Makaul, Kamael and potentially Kaeltar become Wildcards.
    • Make Bigger symbionts better and Smaller Symbionts worse. Potentially all Fire Should do 2x wounds to all symbionts. This makes 1W symbionts worse while positively impacting the big Multiwound symbionts.
    • Add in a Close Combat TAG. I'm picturing a large monster with skills something like: Super Jump, Mimetism, Regeneration, Guard/Prothion L4 and a new Direct Template Weapon with Pheremonic Ammunition. (Honestly this one doens't have to be Tohaa Specific I just want a big dumb rending claws monster.
    Other little flights of fancy:
    • More Exalted Stuff would be nice. (admittedly aliens are pretty hard to design well)
    • If the army isn't going to be expanded shunt it into a new NA2 for Aliens?
    • I'd like to see Mates changed a little. Admittedly I don't know quite what I want them to do? A simple change might be to make them a flat +1 W but I'm not sure if this would be too good or bad. More than anything I find them unpleasant to use now as I have limited control on when to use them.
    • More Pheroware on troopers.
    • A Sygmaa Sectorial
     
  14. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    Triads are special things, I dont think it's a good idea to change it this way. It will be huge nerf to Tohaa's links versatility: Tohaa have no heavy weaponry on it's side but they are much more universal when it comes to troops composition, and reforming links on the fly via Command token also will be almost removed. Also adding wildcards, as-well as special fireteams other factions have (if we continue analogy to other faction link rules)...It will not simplify this part of the game and even make it worse. IMHO, I dont see this as good solution.
    After all, this is one of signature features of Tohaa faction, let it be as it is.

    And Sygmaa sectorial...Well, I believe it would more suits CA army rather Tohaa's, but this is may be an interesting extension of the game, yeah.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except for those Sukeuls we see every game...
     
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  16. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    The key to me is that it opens up play testing and design space a lot more. How many other possible combinations does CB have to test the units with?

    I won't deny its a change to the faction but simplifying and bringing the Army more in line with what other people see and user on a daily basis will benefit Tohaa far more than it would hurt them.

    I'd wager that the majority of the Triads in the game right now are one of the following:

    -Shooter + Specialist + Makaul
    -3 of the Same Unit

    Does it mean that alot of the Triads we see in future will instead be: Shooter + Kamael Specialist + Makaul? Yes yes it probably does.

    On the other side of the fence one of the problems facing Tohaa is a PR problem. They're the weird alien guys with the strange special rules. The army that was/is broken. Does making them more like normal factions reduce some that specialness? Yes but it also makes them more approachable and easier for our opponents to understand. Which is both a good thing for the game and a good thing for Tohaa's popularity.
     
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  17. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    BTW do we have any kind of statistics why people avoid Tohaa as their choice? Because, personally I dont think that a bit weird ruling is the key factor.
     
  18. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I was referring more to other players than anything. Alot of people I've played against seem to have trouble with the Tohaa rules. Making them more approachable for opponent's means that other people have less distaste for them. I've spoken to some people that set the army aside because their local community didn't like playing against them.

    I dont think theres any sort of new player data like that. I can give you anecdotal evidence though. I've demoed for hundreds of people. One of the first questions for the vast majority of people after a demo is about what army they should consider. At this point we usually discuss what their gaming history is, any factions they play in other games and the complexity level they're looking for. The main concern for the majority of people I've talked to was complexity/amount of rules to learn and I think its pretty hard to argue that factions like Aleph/Combined/Tohaa aren't among the more complex. Locally I can tell you that Haqq and Nomads very popular starting choices. The least popular? Tohaa by a noticeable amount.
     
  19. nethervoid

    nethervoid Active Member

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    In my local club, only Ariadna really hates me and my army, all other are pretty Ok with playing against my Tohaa and lately SC. They are also have no much interest in understanding Tohaa internals, btw.

    Why Im asking about statistics is to understand is this rework will really make the difference... Your proposal requests for tremendous rework of Tohaa fireteams with Spiral Corps included and this efforts should have real impact. Unfortunately its not that easy as replace triad with haris and wildcards, there're many places that will be affected and real reasons may lay in diffrent field.
    People may avoid Tohaa by diffrent reasons, like aesthetics, or sculpt, or just want to play humans. People may be just have no much interest in Tohaa (yeah, I know thiss sucks if it's true)
     
    #99 nethervoid, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    melkiach and saint like this.
  20. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I don't see it as a huge rework. You dont have to add any new skills into the game or drastically change any rules. All you have to do is remove a part of the first bullet of the Fireteam Triad rule and add Wildcard to the appropriate units.
    • This Type of Fireteam can only be composed of troopers that have the Fireteam: Triad Special Skill, but it is not required for them to belong the same unit.
    Admittedly units will change in effectiveness/uses but I stand by my observations that the majority of commonly used fireteams would not change drastically under these new rules.

    My list of wildcards isn't necessarily hard and fast. If it would cause too much disruption I could easily see a number of support units added to the wildcard list:
    • Kumotail
    • Kosiul
    • Taagma
    • Keesan
    • Neema
    edit: As for other reasons I could certainly see any of the things you listed as a potential problem. But Spiral Sales can help inform some of that. They have a very different aesthetic style. And Combined Sales can inform us on if its an issue of humans vs. Not. Also possible is that its just not an interesting army but the game play choices really aren't that far off what modern sectorials are. More fireteams in more configurations. Tohaa just take it to the next level. I'm proposing scaling back just a touch.