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Tohaa in N4

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    Been thinking more about N4, and I am not expecting massive changes to individual units, so I have been thinking about issues with equipment or unit types that could use some looking at.

    Holoprojector 2 - The Kotail is a fine unit, but Holoecho generally under performs because an opponent can choose to just shoot it or to delay. The problem with this is emphasized when multiple units can ARO and some choose to shoot and others to delay. This is makes Holoecho significantly weaker and more difficult to use than any other marker state, because if the opponent shoots they still have a 1/3 chance to be shooting the real model and if others are delaying the Holoecho unit can find itself forced to either take uncontested shots, or shoot back against multiple AROs. The other issue is that Holoecho only provides Surprise shot when revealing, and looses this small advantage against any link team with Sixth Sense. This is a pretty common problem with all Holo 2 units, and I am not sure what could be done to help mitigate these issues.

    Heavy Infantry - The Ectross, Neema, and Keil-Saan can be pretty nice, but the problem lies more with how Heavy Infantry generally perform over all in the game due to only providing 1 for their points. Often times it is better to take 2 or 3 lesser armored units just due to overall order efficiency. E/M is also one of the greatest threats to HI due to the IMM-2 that it will inflict in addition to Isolation on a failed half BTS roll, and is now seen on more units than before. Rules like Tactical Awareness and NCO help with the issue of orders, but may be an inelegant solution to add to too many Heavy Infantry. I would like to see the IMM-2 from E/M weapons reduced to IMM-1. That way HI are still more vulnerable, but the attack has to be followed up on to completely remove them as a threat.

    TAGs - The same issues with HI effect TAGs, and add on top of that being unable to go prone, and dodging at a -6. It would be great to see basic TAGs become more viable in the game. Maybe reduce the -6 to dodge to a -3 instead. Make ECM a more generally useful piece of equipment. Let TAGs, (and Remotes) benefit from Fairy Dust.

    White Hacking Device - This is supposed to be the counter to Information warfare, but does not do more than a regular hacking device to protect or buff Heavy Infantry, Remotes, or TAGs, and the best defense against enemy hackers is by far the KHD, and a KHD does not cost any SWC. I think it would be cool for White Hacking Devices, (and Defensive Hacking Devices) have active turn programs which could cancel enemy hacker's active supportware, and have the Blackout program so they can shut down enemy hacking devices.
     
  2. Romulas

    Romulas Member

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    Thought N4 was just going to be a rules fix and hopefully getting rid of all the nested terms.

    Can't see them doing a major redesign for each races fiddly bits. They would all lose the character and feel that brought many people into the game.

    Hacking could do with some simplifying, no need for multiple devices that should do more or less the same thing.

    Other than that, worry about it when it comes :)
     
    nehemiah, RobertShepherd and saint like this.
  3. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    i want a tohaa who has symbioarmor that is a motorcycle
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I used to play 'melee swarm' extensively when I started, which was when Tohaa had only its original spread of units. Pretty much nothing but Sakiel Spitfires and Makauls en masse. After the Sukuel dropped I slowly swapped to gun triads and symbiomates with some clipsos as my go-to, which seems to be the most standard way to play Tohaa. When I play Tohaa again I intend to dust off the old Makauls and go stab some bitches though
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I was asking for a Jumping Plus motorbike for Tunguska (Zondnautica)... but since they got a transformer robot, and we already have seen regular not impetuous in the Dynamo and the mounted 112, I envision now a 20-5 (8-2) hopper-like exalted symbiont, with no Impetuous...

    It doesn't even need to have a Tohaa mounted on top, damnit, it can be an exalted alien!!! XD
     
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  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I'll admit, I'd emit a high-pitched sound that would alarm nearby animals if we ever saw concept art of some sort of exalted cavalry troop.
     
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  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    A Mountable SymbioBeast!
     
  8. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

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    No Tohaa fantasy miniatures plz
     
  9. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I would like that change! Making Mutan symbiobeast mountable would be great.
    Kamael WHD with cheaper weapon (like in Kappa hacker in 0-12).
    Longarms - total makeover.
    Chaksa HMG - give her TR even with point increase.
    Reex - need regular Triad to be usefull.
    Taquel requires rebalancing starting. He may be a good platform for Corhatar.
    Any unit with pheroware tactics should be able to fulfill Hackers missions, and yes this woudl include units with Symbiobombs. Bombs would be nice then
     
  10. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    While I agree that HMG Chaksa is overcosted and needs a fix, I don't think granting it TR is what we really need. The reason they are not as popular is that they don't have any means to compete with TR bots: no 2nd level of Unconsciousness, no Mimetism, Climbing Plus or high mobility. I guess, giving the HMG profile Mimetism would solve a lot of issues while keeping the unit fair.

    UPD: Oh, I also forgot they die to Shock ammo, so this also needs to be addressed if they are still going to cost 25|1SWC. Could they perhaps gain V: Dogged?
     
    #50 n21lv, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Tohaa and haqqislam should have similarities in abilities. More bioengineered skills abilities.
    Make them a complete different feel.
    Make them unable to hack HI or TAGS, due to complete isolation or full environment sealed, but let be able to hack LI or other unhackable .... like psionics...
    maybe dominating the mind exactly like the hacking dominate I think...

    The medic could remove this kind of state as the "reset" or battle of wills ....

    The way it Is all the factions have a similar feel.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What's the point? It wouldn't be run in the face of Sukeul/Kaeltar/Makauls.
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @RobertShepherd You know the internal balance of the artichokes is completely out of whack.
     
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  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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  16. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    i would give up makauls for a guy who has symbioarmor that is a motorcycle
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @RobertShepherd Good to know we're past the boundaries of your knowledge.
     
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  18. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I believe that TR bots used to be low 30s for cost, so the Neuro Chaksa was a discount TR bot. To make it playable, at minimum they'd need to bring the discount back, but I'd prefer to see something like linking with Longarms to get Burst 5. That would be hilarious and and give them and the longarms at least some reason to exist.
     
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  19. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    they used to all be 35/36. dunno why they got such a price drop when our guy didnt
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  20. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    So....
    - Bring costs in line. A lot of thing in tohaa is underpriced. Compare clipsos and Tuareg, for example. Loose 2 wip, trade ARM for BTS and suddenly costs 5 points less. WTF?
    - Symbiont armor also need to be priced appropriately. It is a second wound without any vulnerability AND a get out of jail free card for IMM / ISO. It shouldnt cost less than NWI - who gets hard countered by Shock that is becoming commonplace.
    - Sukeul does too much. It has the solution for everything, the specialist carries a k1, all the plataforms are BS 13 and mimetism, 2 wounds... It does anything you could dream you could want, and is linkable. Making tohaa lists is thinking how many sukeul teams you can fit.
    - Makaul covers all the needs on a fireteam. If you ever find yourself out of range eclipse solves that problem. Teams have no CC vulnerability because you have a very good CC unit with them. Heavy flamethrower is *nasty*
    - Gorgos needs a change. It is a ok tag, except that it melts. TAGs are already too vulnerable for what you pay, getting one that is even more vulnerable for the same price is... meh.
    - Rasail invalidate any HI choices in tohaa. Why would you pay more to get a HI that is vulnerable to hacking and exactly as resilient as this guy?
    - Kriigel are stupid. You get all the stupidity and non-iteractivity that jammers have and you doulbe up.
    - Kaeltar are still stupid, even with the symbiomate nerf. Symbios are now at a ok place, but kaeltars are still 20 pts CoC. You would kill for that on any other army, but then they make a couple of your guys nearly invulnerable and are linkable?
    - Together with the bring costs in line - chaksa longarms suffer from that too. Weapons are too expensive, and it is not worth to pay that hefty price on such a lackluster plataform.
     
    Berjiz and Icchan like this.