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TO downgrade to regular Camo

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Theronth, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a relevant comparison to make, because the whole point of Holo3 is that you can use it and Patroclus' Mimetism/ODD at the same time as being in the states.

    I think it's also relevant to note that states doesn't really have room to have NFB label, so where would it be written?
     
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  2. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    There is the other side of Holo3 in that it allows the user to be in fireteams too, but that's aside.

    As ruled in this thread you can benefit from TO Camo modifiers the same turn as you come out of Camouflaged State as the state does not have NFB and you do not need to be using the Skill with NFB continuously to be in the State.

    If that is correct (as was ruled by @ijw) then the same would apply to Holoprojector (any level) and being in a Holo State (either Projector or Echo as both are States, the latter is a Marker State) would not trigger the NFB on the Skill. As you say, that would make the NFB on Holo3 irrelevant and might be a clue as to how both Skill sets should be used.
     
    #42 DukeofEarl, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    State never have NFB. For example Camouflaged and TO camouflaged don't have NFB either. That does not mean you can combine the camouflaged state with DDO or holo 2 (or that you can combine both TO camo and camo).
     
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  4. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I'm honestly not sure what you are trying to say. Combining the -6 BS benefit of TO Camo with the Camo Marker State is exactly what this thread has established you being able to do.

    The lack of NFB on the Camo states is what the whole thread has been about and given that situation there is no reason you could not be in the Camo State while benefitting from ODD. It also means that the lack of NFB on Holo3 is only beneficial in the extremely rare situation where you have a unit being attacked while in the order while trying to use the Holo1/2 skill meaning that they could not benefit from other Skills/Equipment with NFB. Much like a Reverend Custodier using White Noise and having their ODD turned off for the order they are placing the WN Zone, not for the entirety of the time the Zone is in place.
     
  5. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    That's what the people on this thread aggreed on. There is a big gap between this and "etablished" : first CB often went against what people agreed on on this forum, second, no referee is forced to follow the agreement on this forum
     
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  6. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Why?
    An establishment describes a process involving different participants, just like in this thread.
    Rules don't get "established", just maybe their reading/understanding/interpretation.
    Noone said that what has been agreed on in this thread is a ruling,
    but just that everybody here agrees on this interpretation of the rules.
     
  7. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Established in that no one has been able to present Rules as Written to contradict it.
     
  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    You mean "no one has presented evidence to contradict it". Presuming that the absence of evidence means that the evidence either cannot be produced or doesn't exist is a logical error. Especially when some of the rules discussions in the forum descend well below the "coffee table arguments" (I think that's what the called it...) standard that CB has mentioned before. :(

    Just as a random observation, if a model is in the regular Camo state, and it has the regular and TO camo skills, when do you think it would declare which level of Camo it is using, and how often can the trooper change that decision?

    Because at some point it becomes "Okay, I'm declaring Discover. Which of those camo markers are using TO Camo?"
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    While a fair point on the front end, Discover is only modified by the marker state you are in, not which skill you happen to be using. A camo marker using TO Camo skill would still be -3 to discover, but -6 to shoot at if they revealed, or were successfully discovered.

    This is a consequence of Marker States being separated from the skills that invoke them and, more specifically, the fact that you can't voluntarily cancel a state by "turning off" the skill.
     
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  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I know I've read it somewere, but I cannot find it: can someone point where is the explanation why a camo stated trooper can use the TO modifier in the same order and ignore NFB?
     
  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Personally, I fail to see a way for you to be able to use the Level 3 of Camouflage (TO) while applying the Marker state of the Lv2 (regular Camo, so to speak)... using 3 for the -6 => TO marker. Using 3 for the marker => -3. Crossing both skills claiming that the type of marker is disconnected from the skill seems... strange (considering each level points to its respective marker).

    I'm leaving aside Mimetism (which is the only Obligatory level, and the only non.vulnerable to Fire), btw. And please remember that the NFB argument is also funny (since RAW, were it not for the FAQ, any troop with levels in Camo or with ODD would be unable to use Cybermask/White Noise, because Mimetism being Obligatory could prevent you from declaring those programs... leaving the Interventor, Asura and Charontid, I think, as the only true Hackers Plus XD).
     
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    RAW or otherwise, this feels incredibly stupid, counter-intuitive and exactly the type of rules that keeps Infinity from growing a player base, as it devovles to a life-style game that you need to use a unnecessary amount of effort in order to keep yourself up-to-date with the quirks, lest you get a bad surprise mid-battle, which only sours your experience of the game.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It isn't ever explained, which is why there is so much debate. This is a direct interpretation of the rules, where the rules give permission to enter the Camouflaged state but never instructs you to keep using the skill CH2: Camouflage. The state doesn't have NFB and the skill isn't required to be active, thus there is nothing preventing you from using a different NFB skill (e.g. CH3: TO Camouflage) while in Camouflaged state.

    Basically it's hard to follow because it is all deduction, not dictation.
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    But that goes against the NFB FAQ on cybermask+ODD (which is also an state). That's why I'm having a hard time to understand the reasoning behind this. To me, more than deduction is a tweak of the intended rules more than a interpretation.
     
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  15. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
    Warcor

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    No, cybermask is a running program with nfb, impersonation is the state.
     
  16. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I understand that, and makes sense. What I don't is why beign in camo state from using camo means you are not using it.
     
  17. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Because if the state depends on the skill, and the skill Is optional you could cancel the state at any moment by stoping the skill, so it was ruled they are independent.

    Cybermask on the other hand says the program persists as long as the Trooper Is in the imp state.
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    But camouflage is the skill what allows "to be" not "to enter" the state, so the hability should still be active, like with cybermask (without the hability, you cannot be in the marker state, so using other NFB should in the same order should not be possible).

    Also, the "optional" refers to when to use the hability with an order, but its duration or cancelation comes from other places, and those should be taken into account, not ignored (as I say, it seems a tweak of the rules, not a direct interpretation)
     
  19. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
    Warcor

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    At the contrary, Camouflage is the skill that allows to enter the state, at no point you need to be using the skill to remain in the state, after using it in deployment or with a complete order.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged

    Activation
    • Automatic in the Deployment Phase.
    • During their Active Turn, troopers with CH: Camouflage may revert to the Camouflaged state by expending one Entire Order while outside enemy LoF.
    Also, losing the skill is not in the cancellation clauses.

    It is a tweak of the rules, but it was done in the FAQ, so even if this is counterintuitive is how it's supposed to be handled.

    upload_2019-10-2_10-3-43.png
     
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  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflage_and_Hiding_(CH)

    Second effect bullet in level 2 says:

    During the game, allows the user to be in the Camouflaged state.

    Yes, you cannot cancel the state voluntary, but that has nothing to do with if the hability is or not active. You cannot cancel it. The hability (which is what the troopers have) is what allows to be in the marker so it should be in use