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TO downgrade to regular Camo

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Theronth, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Not until revealed.

    I remember this was asked on WGC infinity and my answer originally was the "not in the same order because of NFB" until someone noted that Camouflaged was the state that imposed the -3 to discover, and TO Camouflage was the skill imposing the -6 wich is private information

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Open_and_Private_Information

    These pieces of information are Private in Infinity:
    (...)
    The contents of your Camouflage and TO Camouflage Markers.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this has always been "-3 in the order the TO-model-hiding-under-a-CAMO-marker reveals and then -6 for every order after."
     
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  3. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Which is also the answer more in line with common core expectation, NFB interactions and does not require obscure nitpicking about skills, states, always on skills etc etc.

    And I love RAW discussion but lately this is becoming ridiculous.

    You chose to use CH:Camo lv2 in your turn. Suck it up until re-choosing Lv3 next turn.
     
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  4. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    that was the group consensus till the faq came out and then at least my understanding was the camo state and the camo skill became completely independent (albeit you use the skill to get into the state) and so you can be using a skill of a higher or lower grade then the state you were in.
     
    Robock, Hecaton, BLOODGOD and 4 others like this.
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    This.
     
  6. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    What FAQ ruling gives us this answer? I'm looking and not seeing it myself. For complete understanding, I'm totally fine with as ruled here.
     
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  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I believe it's this one:

    Q: Can you choose to cancel game states that are the result of an optional Skill? For example Camouflaged state or an IMP state.
    A: No, unless the Cancellation bullet points for the game state say that you can cancel the state voluntarily.

    Since "turning off" your CH:Lv2 skill is not enough to cancel the state, the two must be acting independently of each other.
     
  8. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    upload_2019-9-17_13-52-27.png

    Camouflaged state is independent of the Optional Skill Camouflage.
     
  9. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I thought that might be it, but wasn't sure. Thanks
     
  10. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that this would mean there is no real reason to deploy as a TO camo marker
     
  11. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    There are situations where this option is useful, like hiding a Hac Tao as a lowly mine, but there are times that you dont want to be discovered.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    More often than not you either go Hidden Deployment, think about Camo and wise up and go Hidden Deployment or you masquerade as a Mine. TO Camo is something only Shinobu LT and the likes dabble in, because why would you give away your position if you don't have to?
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, thanks!

    That FAQ still feels strange, though. Could we get a clarification or example in the FAQ that it means a Ninja hiding as a Camo marker is -3 to discover but -6 to shoot in that same order, please? @ijw @HellLois ?
     
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  14. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Well obviously HD is the preferred. Though deploying as a TO Camo marker has no benefit when you can hide as a regular Camo marker and not telegraph the TO unit but still get the benefits of the TO Skill.
     
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Its helpful when you know you're taking first turn and you think you may need another order for a primary game plan that otherwise relies on the TO model as a backup. TAG lists for example where you want as many orders as possible to get value with the TAG but if the TAG goes down or gets stuck the TO Model is your secondary attack vector.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You mean, besides being significantly harder to Discover?
     
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  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I didn't think about the mods imposed by the states to discover.
     
  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Would the same apply to Holoprojector states? Would Patroclus be able to benefit from his ODD while in Holo1. That is not how I've played it in the past myself due to the NFB traits.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You know what... considering the wording in Holo3 lacking the precious word "both" in the sentence "This Level works exactly in the same way as the previous, but[...]" I would say that Holo3 works exactly like Holo2 without the NFB label, but if you deploy in holoprojector state you've downgraded to a point where you have NFB because you can't deploy Holoecho state with any other than 3 echoes.
    I'm sure this is an oversight, but that's how I am able to mechanically parse the rules.
     
  20. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    For Holo1 and 2 though the skill puts you into the States (which do not have NFB) just as the distinction between the Skills and Marker states in this thread. The point isn't that Holo3 doesn't have NFB (handy once you are revealed or if disguising as a trio of Myrmidons for example), but that the marker states do not.

    I'm really talking about downgrading to use the Holo1 skill in this case and Holo3 isn't really pertinent.