1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Thoughts on Shaolin Monks?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Ghost_X, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    In terms of raw bang for buck Monks are definitely one of the best warband units points can buy. On the other hand they're probably one of the most one dimensional warbands points can buy short of a Gaki.

    The thing that Monks are missing that other warbands get is viable profiles. Monks only have 1 viable profile. Morlocks for example while statistically inferior to a Monk have a few options that can make them more interesting to someone who likes customising their lists to suit mission parameters. Having access to either an antimaterial CCW or an E/M CCW opens up flexibility for missions. The 2pt upgrade for an assault pistol isn't a bad way to spend left over points either.

    That's my only real complaint against an otherwise stellar unit. They have 5 garbage profiles and 1 awesome one. It'd be nice if N4 did away with all the stupid combi/shotgun/grenade launcher profiles and instead just opened up different CC options for monks, even a monk profile with D-Charges would be interesting.
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    I’m comparing just the cheapest ones with like Chain Rifle and smoke. Pretty much the only ones anyone ever takes.

    The Shaolin can kick almost any of the below ass in CC, but honestly how often would it come into contact with any CC, let alone the equivalent. CC is the least used sat in the game. Essentially he’s there just to throw smoke and do a discover once in a while. Religious hardly ever comes into play. And there’s so much Shock Immune or HI now that the Shock CCW hardly matters and can even be a hinderence if you need to do a coup de grace. You can use the pistol of course but then it’s Dmg 11 and may not put the guy down.

    Shaolin: 5pts, Religious, Kinematika L1, PH13, Smoke, Chain Rifle, Pistol, Shock CCW. Irregular and Extreme Impetious.

    Nomads
    Jaguars: 10pts. Costs more but regular and frenzy. (doesn’t need to worry about running at the enemy and can just toss smoke on the Intruder. DA CCW
    Morlok: 6pts but has DA or E/M CCW, metachemistry can be really good too, givng them abilties beyond their cheap pts.

    Haqq
    Gazi: nuff said but 5pts, +Jammer, E/Marat, Dogged
    Kum: 10pts. expensive but so much faster and either throw smoke or launcher it. I don’t think the big base hinders it too much. Dogged. AP CCW.

    Ariadna
    Galwegians: 6pts +1 pt but have AP CCW wit dogged and berserk, Potential to become Regular as well.

    Aleph
    Myrmidon: 16pts. MA Level 3 as well, + ODD, Nanopulsar, Regular and Frenzy. AP CCW.

    Combined
    Daturazi: 14pts. Regular, Morate rules, Mimetisim, MA L4, PH14

    Tohaa
    Makul: 13pts Regular, MA2 with I-Khol, Viral or DA CCW, Eclipse Grenades, and can be in a fireteam triad to ignore the Exteme Impetous.

    NA2
    Yuan Yuan: 8 or 9pts. can land anywhere or come from the side. But can alway set up normally in th deployment, +1 PH AP or DA CCW and Booty.

    O-12
    Varangian Guard: 12pts. Regular and normal Impetous, + Lt. Shotgun. AP CCW, Berserk, Dogged, Religious too.

    Many of the above also have better BS as well.

    If I had my way, I’d make them Martial Arts Level 4 & Tac Awareness (Edit: Deleted Frenzy) at minimum. Then add Super Jump and/ or Climb Plus to be like a fun martial arts movie or Hyper Dynamics. And more CCW weapons. DA, Breaker, E/M, AP, EXP etc.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #22 Space Ranger, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    archon, Section9 and Azuset like this.
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,867
    Likes Received:
    7,299
    If the basic Monk is an upgrade on the Morlocke (yes, yes, Morlocks have better CCW, but the Monk has a better statline unless you roll well on Metachem for the Morlock), I'd prefer for the Monk to be an upgrade on the Jaguar if they remade Monks.

    It would remove the throwaway smoke tossing troop niche that Monks currently fill, but I'm sure there is a way to get political prisoners to fill that role in a very diplomatic incident kind of way that is the hallmark of this faction.
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    7,316
    Frenzy would make them worse at their job, having that free Impetuous order to throw smoke is part of their appeal. Likewise Irregular is a strength as it makes them significantly more disposable without hurting your order pool. A lot of the things you're comparing them to cost the same as 2-3 Monks!

    I wouldn't discount their CC ability too much either, with two "free" orders per turn and their own smoke they're great for clearing out infiltrators and skirmishers, I use Galwegians to clear out the midfield regularly, and monks have a much better chance of surviving a melee.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    I’m not saying really that Shaolin are bad. They are fine for what they do. I just want them to do more I guess.

    Again, CC hardly happens unless you really try. So that hardly matters at all. Morlocks and others at least have DA CCW that can possibly be used in certain missions and are more likely to take down an opponent if it’s actually used.

    Sorry I didn’t actually mean to put in Frenzy. I meant Tac Awareness. It would act like Impetuous by giving an order only they can use but would allow cover and not screaming crazy running at the enemy.

    Also, I personally hate the "Evil" YJ crap. It's a horrible stereotype.
     
    #25 Space Ranger, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Azuset likes this.
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,867
    Likes Received:
    7,299
    I would like the Monks to do more discipline and be less suicide bombers, too, but the fact is that there's a big 5-point hole for a suicide bomber that kind of wants to be filled.

    I suppose that if Yu Jing really went Control and Command with novel ways of generating orders being common instead of as now merely present on the odd profile, it would also make sense to remove the cheap throw-away units completely. Yes, remove Kuang Shi. The horror.

    If they went more towards the direction of Varangians? If we look at 45th for comparative purposes it seems like Varangian Monks would be able to fit most of their statline, regrade Impetuous to non-Extreme, become Regular, and have room for Climb+ while still remaining below 10 points. That might remove Zhanshi as a thing from the faction, like Varangians are threatening to do to Kappa, but on the other hand Zhanshi are struggling for relevance under the crushing weight of Kuang Shi as it is, so... I dunno...
    At least it'd be interesting to move slightly further away from throw-away humans as a strategy.
     
    Awash in Blood and Section9 like this.
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,552
    Likes Received:
    8,774
    I very much agree with this. Might keep the shotgun profile around (the +6 within 8" helps make up for their crappy BS), but it would be nice to get more CCW options while still armed with Chain Rifles.

    Even Dogged might be interesting, and a shoutout to the old Society of the Harmonious Fist (Boxers), who believed that sufficent Kung Fu prowess could make one immune to bullets.
     
    Awash in Blood likes this.
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    That's a really interesting breakdown, @Space Ranger . Cheers. :)

    It sounds like a major part of why I value them more highly is that I see CC happen probably two out of every three games, maybe more.

    Plus there's the contextual synergy in faction, which mostly boils down to being able to cheaply access the orders you need for the monks to reach melee (hard to argue that a Jaguar is better than a monk and a kuang shi for almost the same cost) and YJ having some of the better smoke shooting in game, which highly warrants cheap easy access to a couple smoke grenades a turn for 5pts.

    But mostly it's the melee thing. I see warbands in melee a *lot*, and that's what makes me rate the monks highly, because they're pretty much the best at it of all warbands (again, with some very close swings depending on how value berserk etc).
     
  9. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    151
    I really love the lore behind Yu Ching. It represents duality. I would prefer to keep Kuang shi as they are. I think there is room for both your style of monks and Kuang shi.
     
    Stuffist likes this.
  10. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    131
    I never understand why Shaolin Monks are impetious. They are know for the opposite. Calm martial artists, that only attack when needed and not storming head over heels into combat.

    That would give them a complete different role in gameplay, but with N4 there is the opportunity for it.

    I like the idea of TA instead of impetious combined with climb+ and superjump. I would add a profile with throwing stars (Silent, B2, DAM = PH, AP (aim for the weak spots) Range like Grenades but 8" = 6+). The stick could be a stun ccw :-)

    I use two on a reglular basis in vanilla. And yes I let them run before the kuangs to give them smoke cover.
    The sculpts of the box are okay, but nothing too fancy ... I like the very old sculpts

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Now i'm lucky to get a CC battle in 1 time a game even with troops that are supposed be good at it. And i've tried! I actually got a little in with a Caliban on Saturday but it's was against pupniks, (he attacked me) I killed one out of two but lost and gained a wound at the same time. Then casually murdered by the last pupnik. Ghost: Synch in CC is no joke. Totally stupid in fact.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    Show me your average vanilla list that has monks in it.
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    TBH I have not played Vanilla in months if not a year. So before Krakot, before Daoying, but this is probably what I would do now. One Shaolin just for throwing on the Rui Shi. One working with the Krakot, throwing smoke for him and moving up. With my Ikari, i've found the Krakot to be a better Monk than a Monk. The third would depend but probably just to throw smoke for someone else to move up.

    Of course, for me, it depends on the mission as well.

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    TIGER SOLDIER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #33 Space Ranger, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    Ok well I can immediately spot your problem with getting into CC frequently, you're not running enough orders. What you've got there is fine but it's basically just going to act as chain rifle ARO deterrents and smoke support. CC is order intensive because of the ground you need to cover and often the amount of smoke you need to pop.

    If you want to go pick fights in CC you need a second combat group that looks like this.


    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]8
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

    0.5 SWC | 53 Points

    It's a whole bunch of cheap assholes you don't care about that run into the middle of the table pick fights with people, and if your opponent gives them an opening, rushes into their deployment zone and starts causing trouble.

    Basically if you want to do close combat with Monks they want a combat group to themselves to do it, doesn't have to be exactly like above but you want to make sure they've got orders to play with. Sometimes I mix the CC group in with the Smart Missile launcher like this:

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]6
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)

    2 SWC | 61 Points

    Tonight that group had 2 monks make CC. One ran into an Omega unit and embarrassingly lost the fight and died. The other managed to get smoke up on a roof and ran up there and beat a Gangbuster dead, then locked a Betatrooper in CC and stopped it from moving to contest zones.
     
    Azuset and Savnock like this.
  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    446
    Very solid advice this. Big fan of this type of build/tactics myself: one order group for achieving things, one for attrition and annoyance (and/or supporting AD troops). Main issue is MSV2 snipers so I always have an excellent ranged gunner in the opposite group, or some spec fire. Speaking of which:

    I do the same thing a lot! SML is my backup "well, everything else is borked" tactic, and it's almost always first or second turn. So it goes well with an order group that is otherwise expendable.
     
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Thanks but I refuse to use Kuang Shi, until I get actual robots to replace them anyway. I understand where you are coming from though but it's just not something I want to do. For me, shaolin as of now is good just for throwing smoke and not much else.
     
    krossaks likes this.
  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    It is rare in this forum, many posters soley say a unit is good.

    Shaolins are good no doubt :o
     
    Joametz and Savnock like this.
  18. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    526
    Same i dislike the idea an concept of kuang shi. On the other said i love with monks, and having shaolins in a futuristic army was one of the main reasons to pick Yu Jing.


    And for the moment the Shaolins are one pf the rare multicomponent boxes I found from CB
     
  19. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    161
    What's wrong with Kuang Shis? If it's the fluff, you can invent any kind of alternative version and go on with it - who cares once in game?

    If it's with the unit design, I don't get what not to like about a 5pts regular order battery (even if not durable due to Impetuous). It balances our other cheerleaders costing 11pts.
     
    krossaks and Savnock like this.
  20. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    530
    I think it's about inhumane treatment of political prisoners that irks some people. It's similar to the objections raised by parts of the community during the Uprising. Stuff like Crane Agents going on mass murder streaks, Japanese units retaining names from a WW2 regiment that committed war crimes etc.

    Some people don't want that kind of stuff associated with their faction/game, others will accept it as part of the fluff and embrace it. A matter of preference, really.
     
    Hecaton and Space Ranger like this.