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Thoughts on Gunnar Trollhunter from Dire Foes

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Ghost_X, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    KoJ ML in full link should do a good job as well, especially if deployed further back, and not easily reachable by Marksman Rifles or Spitfires. And when the new crit rules arrive it'll become even better.
     
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  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    So it seems as of now Sval has some really tough ARO and some really great active turn attack pieces.
    Perhaps specialists will be the weak point? can't say we've seen very much in the way of button pushers.
     
  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Lei Gong's Mary sue stat line and him turning up elsewhere are a separate issue that I fully acknowledge. Hopefully mixed links in SWF will help with that.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well frankly speaking do far it looks like a weaker NCA. No Swiss and no cheap/strong assault pieces (Auxilia, CSU).
     
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    At the moment there's a LOT resting on the Nisse.

    But hopefully the Fireteams and new units can take up some of the slack.
     
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  6. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Boygs too, they probably wont be markers because Duo, and there isn't a huge amount of design space left. If they aren't a clone of something already in Pano there's a decent chance they might end up clones of something in O-12. What if they end up as Omegas?
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    Sval seems to be the new home of massive ARM, so perhaps the big ML lad will be packing ARM 7, real TAG armour that can semi-reliably bounce the linked big-mod HMG nonsense that has come to dominate the active turn. ARM tank ARO pieces haven't really been done before short of taking risks with TAGs so it's a new bit of design space to explore at any rate.
     
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  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    TAG level ARM on a HI would be a solid explanation for a S5 HI, even for PanO.

    Now you have my hopes up!
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Yeah fun.

    Bitching about an okay YJ unit in the PanO forums with inaccurate "facts" about its OPness is hillarious.

    Sure the guy would get rounded down to 3 points (my point not yours). But he isn't OP right now and won't be in C1/N4.
    Actually run his numbers in the calculator...
    he doesn't fight well in 8" which is default territory for rooftops and corners. He can't delay his ARO in HMG rangebands to catch i.e. the Nisse you mentioned unopposed.
    Albedo only works turn one and both his 6-2 movement speed as well as his weapon just got a whole lot worse. You need a coordinated Order or a Link sacrificing someone (something) in Active to go against a Dodge or get an unopposed shot.
    Albedo doesn't do much for ARO, the Nisse won't be the only striker and the big stuff blows Lei Gong off his rooftop or treats him as a very expensibe Blitzen.
    HI and MI also got faster and B3 DAM 13 will have trouble killing even ARM3.

    The crit changes really favor high B/high Damage weapons. And while those got tuned down against high ARM, they are potentially more deadly against ARM 0-2, which matters to everything with NWI/Dogged or stuff you wanted to doctor later.
    Lei Gong is far from OP right now and won't we OP after the changes either.
     
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  10. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    Remember, Svalarheima is a N3 sectorial with N4 in mind.
    And IMO a linked Nisse HMG is better than a Swiss or an Aquila.
     
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  11. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    You mean "the linked big-mod HMG nonsense" that Svalarheima is bringing itself?

    KoJ as Wildcars means the stupid super-expensive-rambo-plus-super-cheap-filler-nonsense will live on.

    And Core linked Nisse is the same nonsense as the Kamau, just that it might be somewhat more expensive because it's not a wildcard.
     
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  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    @Teslarod I'm not saying he's OP, just overoptimized. Being an MI with 6-2 MOV, NWI and Bioimmunity means that he's basically getting all the boons of HI lite, but without its drawbacks. Shock Marksman and SMG are amongst two most useful weapons in the game, with SMG being criminally underpriced. On top of it he's also linkable. Albedo and MSV are just gravy, even if very useful one.

    First of all that guy should be a HI. Second, he should be unlinkable, or able to run in a Duo, at most; He's an Aristeia celebrity and shouldn't be integrated that well with proper military. And finally he feels shoehorned into WBA, just as Qiang Gao does.
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    See that's just parroting what you've heard elsewhere and not thinking for yourself.
    Is a SMG on a LI Hacker great to make him 5 points cheaper relative to a combi?
    Heck yeah.

    Would it be great on a Swiss Guard or Multi HMG TAG chassis as main armament?
    Heck no.

    It's good on Dart because Dart has Marker State and C+ and wants to fight in 8". It's good on Ryuken since the X-Visor has a lot of synergy with it. It's not good as a weapon on i.e. Patsy. Sure it makes her cheaper and enables SF, but having a proper weapon or a LSG+X(Panzerfaust or whatever) would be much better optimisation wise.
    Still with me? Good.
    In the point bracket Lei Gong inhabits, non Specialists gunners usually start getting access to Spitfires/Red Fury/HMG. He is optimized nicely towards gunfighting but eventually it all amplifies the weapon choices available.
    A single SMG or Combi would have ruined the entire thing and Shock MMRs aren't particularly amazing weapons. You really want to pay a couple extra points for that Red Fury Spitfire on a troop you actively plan to spend orders on, otherwise you're looking at a dedicated opportunist. Common examples are Camo Infiltrators, those can do a lot of work being in the right place at the right time (and the right rangebands).

    My take on it would be completely different as a result. Hed'd be amazing with a Red Fury/Spitfire. With a Shock MMR he is an interesting filler that provides options (unhackable memeber of a HI Link, Bioimmuniy vs i.e. Viral, Shock if you don't have access to it from i.e. a Multirifle and ofc Albedo). Far from a direct upgrade, auto pick or even staple pick.
     
    #113 Teslarod, Mar 22, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I think that Valkryie isn't nearly as bad as this dude

    At least Valkyrie has the excuse of merging her neo-viking look with the lass out of Police Academy, and while I'd prefer it if she was all in on that in Infinity with no Aristeia-esque costume, the costume elements are limited. Plus the mini is sweet.

    This guy looks kinda lame. He's a lame-o. I look forward to shooting him in the face.
     
  15. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I wasn't liking Valk because of her stupid wing thing in her hair but now ... I prefer her to this nonsens speessss woof woof
    I might convert her and use her as Gunnar
     
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  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Wut?
    I agree Swiss guard is a good reason to play NCA, and possibly one of the few keeping them afloat in today's climate. But I would never call an auxilia or CSU a "cheap, strong assault piece". more like "Line troop I'll maybe do something with". I don't really think theres much weight to the NCA comparison – NCA link teams are almost all one dimensional and terrible by today's standards. While we don't know a ton about the Sval teams, seeing a plethora of "Core, Haris, Special" next to several of the troops on there is very relieving.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Hey, don't knock Morlocks 12 and 13. They're purrty.
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I'm usually happy to talk about different interpretations and analysis, but not when they start with an insult. So refrain from them, please.

    Lei's SMG profile is actually similar in function to that LI hacker you've mentioned; it lowers the cost of a support unit. CoC trooper won't be usually used neither as attack piece nor as a specialist, he'll be sitting back until last turn, or move forward with a fireteam but still keeping a safe position. When you'll finally activate him for himself it's probably in the last turn, most likely either to take an opportunity to grab an objective, or to take out a reachable target - as by that time both forces will close the distance. He's also helped in both instances by his 6-2 MOV, and the fact that HIs are probably about to get faster doesn't change that. Bottom line is that this model is a support unit that is able to act as a good turn 3 fighter, not a prime assault piece like Swiss or a TAG you've mentioned. If his role would be to get into the fight from first order, then yeah, SMG with no advanced deployment skills wouldn't be optimized. But in this case it keeps the cost of your backup trooper down, while still being a decent gun in typical combat situations he's likely to find himself in.

    SMR isn't actually much worse from Red Fury. The latter weapon's increased burst gives it another 5-9% chance of inflicting damage while reducing opponent's chances by another 3-5%, and it's not a negligible difference, but SMR's chances are usually pretty good in the first place - certainly good enough to try them - and come in SWC-free package, which is very useful in armies full of SWC-heavy choices. It is significantly worse when the range is below 8", but it's rarely going to be used at this range. In active turn its player will control the range picking out targets that other units might need more orders to deal with, particularly units with visual mods. And since YJ has no units with both Red Fury and MSV, RF's additional burst is actually worse than negating/reducing opponent's visual mods. Example: full YJ fireteam against Phoenix in Enomotarchos. If we lead with Haidao RF, we're getting 38/28 chances of dealing vs receiving a wound. With Lei Gong taking point the odds are 43/20. Given the abundance of visual modifiers out there SMR Lei might be more of a workhorse than a unit with an assault weapon but without MSV might. What's more, he also has a Nanopulser to use at close range, for example when enemy infiltrator will try to shoot a shotgun out of camo; a case in which DTW will be a better choice anyway, since opponent's modifiers would give him an enormous edge in FtF.

    That latter scenario underlines another thing: Lei is getting all the pros of HI lite - ARM and BTS included - and in the situations like the one above is actually able to take unopposed shots with a chance to remain standing. The only thing making him worse than most HIs is his average PH, but again, it's a part of how well optimized he is; with no throwing weapons he's not paying for an expensive stat he probably won't use anyway.

    Again; all this combines to create a profile that has many strengths with close to none actual weaknesses; Jack of all trades, decent at all of them. The fact that other units might be better in any particular task doesn't change the fact that 1) they won't be much better at it, and 2) he'll outperform them in most other tasks. And as I've said before, my solution to the problem would be not to take away his toys - he's an interesting unit, and I see no reason why YJ shouldn't have it - but give him some weaknesses opponent could exploit. Becoming an HI would be an obvious one, not being able to run in a Core would make him more vulnerable to camo and slightly worse as an attack piece, which would make other, linkable options relatively more useful.
     
    #118 Stiopa, Mar 22, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well I had A TON of mileage from Auxilias and CSUs. Seriously, I had games when I had not even spent a single order on Swiss Guard and still won (and killed a lot of stuff with aftermentioned LI).

    Mere possibility (well, very high in NCA ;P) of Swiss Guard makes enemy deploy very conservatively, thus enabling some attacks from those light (with a lot of punch) units. Especially that in the NCA you can make (easily) lists when you can double down on a single flank spending ~18 orders on Auxilia/CSU duo attacking and collapsing enemy flank.

    My (current and obiousyl very likely to be not true) problem with SWF is that they will need the fireteams both for defensive/offensive without a single fireteam being able to achieve (for obvious reasons) both roles. But we will see on 26th how it truly shapes (it's general problem that lack of CAMO/HD is a very big disadvantage, and coupling that with PanO lack of smoke/tools, known problems of ORCs and rather straightforward (so far) disclosed units it's not surprise that there are some doubts).
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Mate no offense intended, my bad if it came across that way.

    The percentages you mention are absolutes. So the performance upgrades in between B3 and B4, better DAM Value (Spitfire) or overall Rangebands (Red Fury) is something around 25%+ relatively speaking when solo and 20% in a Link on the damage dealing side, before those very important rangeband differences (24-32 for HMG 0-8 for Red Fury). Defensive value is even higher than that since one more die reduces the chance to lose to a fumble'd roll very significantly.
    Both Spitfire and Red Fury increase performance in the on thing he is supposed to do, shooting, significantly more than the increase in point costs.

    Lei's biggest weakness is that you do not want to be in a situation where he is good. He starts in the DZ, isn't order efficient outside of a Link (neither deadly by himself, nor has Deployment Skills nor is a Specialist) and Ideally you'd want a linked B5 weapon in positive rangebands that has better odds to deal with whatever you are trying to clear with him.

    Your numbers on Phoenix are pretty much exactly why he is situational and not an upgrade. IA doesn't rely on Smoke and needs to clear Phoenix the PanO way. You can't bank on getting into 24", MSV1 doesn't offset the downsides of the SMR against a Core Linked Zuyong HMG or a Haidao MSR (the real competition for Lei Gong). I've not once even seen a theoretical list with a Haidao Red Fury out there.
    He still has his space, but my side of the argument is that guy is in no way shape or form correctly classified as "OP".
    He pays for his kit, a Zuyong is SMR would be below 30 points with real 2W and would end up around 34 with DTW, MSV1 and Albedo.
    Being almost well optimized sans weapon choice isn't a bad thing or balancing issue in a game where Frenzy exists and Posthumans and Mutts are a thing.

    Jack of all trades, decent at all of them. Is not what makes a broken Profile, that's just a run of the mill good one.
     
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