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Thought: Exile should be a ubiquitous hacking program. Overlord/Total Control should not be.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but it's not anymore difficult to choose against than against a BS Attack (that only has a +0 range band and B2) so if the FO chooses to shoot with the combi instead... well...
     
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  2. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    They'd be a lot more useful if the user didn't need to be targeted by a Hacking Attack in order to declare them.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. Basic problem with forex Breakwater.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    A lot more useful, break the game logic a lot more, and risk being such a huge problem that only Ariadna and Tohaa could have them for balance concerns
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    How would it be any different than dogpiling some poor HD that wondered into your hacking area with with every device in your list?
     
  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The inherently silly problem with DHDs is that they focus on protecting your hacker against attacks which they're only vulnerable to in the first place because they're a hacker. The most effective use of a DHD is to turn it off, put it down, walk away.
     
  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    lol, so the best way to use a DHD is to give it to your opponent...
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    DHDs are still specialists of the type that is featured by far the most in ITS. They can still provide a range of useful Hacking Programs.

    It's not like Paramedic which is rarely if ever used and has a higher tendency to not only waste orders but actually kill your own units. Yet people still take Paramedics for their specialist qualities. It's all about the price.
    And they also only exist in armies which don't have much or anything to protect. Allowing them to Breakwater or Counterstrike when they aren't targeted is weird. It's allowing Smoke to protect a different model weird. Breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game. Those Shield programs still need better MODs, however, because they should be strong deterrents and clearly they are not.

    Here's a concrete suggestion:
    * Cut price down to the same as KHD
    * Change Breakwater to +0/+0 "Burst is one for each hacking attack", nullify (similar to Martial Arts 5) (1)
    * Change Zero Pain to +6/-6 B1, nullify
    * Change Counter Strike to +3/-3 B1, return to sender
    * Presence of DHD confers Reboot to entire army

    (1) Breakwater is difficult since HD+ has them. Can't make it too strong
     
    #68 Mahtamori, Mar 7, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
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  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    EVOs have breakwater as well. What about just changing all DHDs to WHDs? The main problem with DHDs, as pointed out, is a hacker can just idle first short skill (or move into a hacking area), and all the DHD can do is reset (why do I even have programs again?).

    That said, I'm kind of loving that idea for breakwater...
     
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  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Why not just give it a silent mode: You can only target a DHD (with hacking attacks) in ARO.
     
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  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't help against linked HDs that are in ZoC, but it's certainly an interesting idea. I like it.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Another option I can see is to tweak the Shield programs that DHD has access to so they don't require being a target. It'd have to mean that the concept of burst is removed from them and that instead they work more along the lines of Reset. Naturally Counterstrike as a Reset that bounces ALL hacking attacks back might be a bit strong which would lead to a very negative MOD which in turn leads to it being very situational, but it's also a possibility to simply not give DHD access to Counterstrike.

    Breakwater could be a +0/-0 "Reset" where failed attacks causes attacker to enter Stunned
    Zero Pain could be a +3/-3 "Super Reset"
     
  13. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    This makes no sense. The reason they don't work is that you can't use them to DEFEND or SHIELD yourself. In the active turn, these programs work just fine. But in the reactive turn they are absolutely useless. How does allowing EVO hackers the choice of using Breakwater over Brainblast and Reset to defend themselves break the game? If anything, it opens up more tactical options to BOTH players. And aren't Ariadna and Tohaa the only armies with the DHD and WHD anyway? Where are all the calls to add these devices to other armies? I'll tell you: nowhere, because they suck balls. So who cares?

    CB had to make the WHD just to make Shield 2-3 useful, and all it is a cloned DHD with pseudo SSL1. It would have been a lot easier to fix the SHIELD programs, as opposed to adding a new piece of equipment and not upgrading the models with the original shitty device.

    Maybe just change Breakwater to be able to be declared when an enemy Hacker activates in your Hacking Area. Then we won't "break the game".:ghost:
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I was frustrated that they made WHD with pseudo-sixth-sense instead of altering the DHD programs to allow you to declare them preemptively. You can Reset before you are sure a hack is incoming; why can’t you launch your Breakwater software?
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It breaks the core Face to Face mechanic by allowing a third party to interact directly with the Face to Face roll. No bueno.

    And I have been saying a White Hacking Device would make sense and be very suitable in Invincible Army. But not at the cost of a TAG, the TAG's antipode, and the combined national debt of the United States of 23rd Century America. It's significantly worse than a Hacking Device so it should cost significantly less than a Hacking Device.

    Yes, that's a WHD and not a DHD. I know. See above for suggestions that'll make DHD useful without breaking Face to Face mechanics.
     
  16. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    What third party? You already get an ARO if a Hacker activates in your Hacking Area. If the Hacking Area is from a repeater, ALL your Hackers get an ARO (3rd, 4th 5th, etc party). The SHIELD programs only affect the user. If a Hacker activates in my Hacking Area, I can declare Reset preemptively, why can't I just activate my defensive suite?

    The way the SHIELD 2-3 programs are written makes them useless if you don't have them on a WHD or have SSL1 AND the enemy is in your ZoC. So why is Breakwater even on EVO and HD+? It's basically just a "Get out of jail, free (maybe)" card for poor movement choices.

    If what you're talking about is the potential for Breakwater to stop attacks against targets without the program, I suggest you go reread the 3rd bullet point. Same for Counterstrike, second bullet for Zero Pain.

    I think your suggestions are overly complicated. Much simpler to change all the DHDs out there to WHD (adjust points if necessary), remove the DHD completely, and remove the requirement of being targeted from Breakwater. Everybody wins.
     
  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    If you could declare a defensive hacking program anytime you can reset, one problem solved.

    If DHDs had a program that messed up KHDs (say counterstrike gets a decent WIP bonus vs khds) and they were a bit more common, you'd likely rebalance the hacking ecosystem back into relevance to boot.
     
    #77 Hachiman Taro, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Jimbo slice, I might be holding the wrong unicorn tail. I was under the impression what you wrote was under the context of; Kanren declares Oblivion targeting Blackjack, Wardriver declares Counterstrike on Kanren and Blackjack declares Reset -> now Kanren needs to beat both Reset and Counterstrike.

    THAT is what'd be no bueno.
     
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  19. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that would be terrible.
     
  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    For me I'd say that

    -get rid of WHDs
    -DHDs get Cyberwarfare Countermeasures, like WHDs do now
    -Shield 1 programs are what HDs and HD+s use to protect themselves. So here you have hack transport aircraft, U-turn and like, a basic program that gives you a good protection from enemy hacking attacks, better than maybe an offensive program at winning the ftf but doesn't really do anything.
    -Shield 2 programs are where the DHD comes in, and it opens up programs that can be declared as an ARO to other troops being targeted by hacking attacks. Basically kind of like U-turn but for anti-hacking. And the maybe a superior program at the stuff Shield 1 is doing.
    -Spotlight gets either straight WIP or B2 or whatever, and is just superior. Also AHDs get program streamlining and maybe one that lets you do something mean to any troop, isolate 1, or irregular next turn, or whatever.

    So basically you streamline and strengthen the AHD, and streamline and broaden the DHD, and then you start putting DHD profiles in the game. EVOs give you supportware which is always running, and can stack with DHDs. So if your random dude gets targeted with Spotlight, the DHD applies a -3 penalty. If your hacker gets targeted by Redrum, then the DHD applies a -3 penalty and Kaleidoscope does too. But also obviously kill the DHD and the EVO and the network falls apart.

    Basically I want to be encouraged to take a variety of hackers, and to be looking at what hackers my opponent has and figuring out the weak point in their infowarfare systems so I can break down their defences and start exploiting their unprotected troops. That'd be badass. But it also needs to be streamlined a lot in terms of program options to make this a system which is not stupidly and intimidatingly complex (but actually only has a few definitely better options within each option stream, like Redrum being just better than Skullbuster etc).
     
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