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Thought: Exile should be a ubiquitous hacking program. Overlord/Total Control should not be.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    Oblivion Lite: targets everyone, no mods, DMG 13. Isolated for 1 turn (Reset-able). Only on AHD.

    I think the root problem is that AHDs can't reliably defend themselves against KHDs,don't interact with the majority of models on the table, and have a pretty steep points/SWC tax. It makes them mostly pointless, in a general sense. Especially if your meta doesn't see a lot of TAGs or HI.

    If they gained Skullbuster and something like what I described above they would be a lot more interesting. And Lockpicker, for the love of all that is holy! Or just flip the prices for AHD and KHD.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Lockpicker isn't much of a balance issue, it's just a quality of life that is completely unnecessary to block them off from.

    For the most part, the non-interactive part with armies that don't feature Hackable elements or Hackers. Killer Hacking Device solves that with Cybermask and a much cheaper price. The comm attack mentioned by @toadchild would be excellent (say... uses the unit's own communications and visual aid devices to overload the senses as well as temporarily shuts down weapon gyros etc etc). I personally think Isolation in any form is a bit strong simply because it does kick you out of a Fireteam, even if a 1-turn duration would not trigger LoL.

    When it comes to anything that can attack with impunity (i.e. without LOF guaranteeing no damaging reactions), the effects should be weak or unreliable because it's an attack without risk.
     
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  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I tend to feel like in a three round tournament environment, where you have two lists, the AHD actually is very viable. At some point you're likely to have an opponent where one is useful, and when an AHD is useful it's really strong and efficient. It's 0.5 SWC for a very relevant specialist that could really ruin the day of a lot of powerful, expensive troops.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I would really like the AHD/KHD balance to be fixed. It's not really good right now. KHDs are so much cheaper that they're the default Specialist choice, even over FOs.
     
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  5. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of either an aro flash pulse program working against everyone (even if user is wip-3). Or a 1-turn isolation against link teams. Both make an assault hacker capable of impacting more targets and make an assault hacker hacking device more of a concern in game.

    I want the hacking game to matter more, it's a layer that I find exciting and wish could be expanded.
     
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  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Given how much of a narrow focus the KHD has, I feel it's cost is fine. AHD's just need to have their cost lowered and maybe a blackout+ program that gives them a +3 so as to fight redrum more effectively.

    or just remove redrum or bump it to an upgrade program.
     
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  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    This is another excellent idea.

    I don't think AHDs need a price break. I use them very effectively and regularly in Nomads. Had they less vulnerability, they would be automatic takes and HI/TAG armies weakened.

    An attack directly against KHDs themselves is a really cool idea, and would also be usable to turn off other comms equipment like Repeaters, etc. Another really interesting tool and perfectly in the AHD's area of function... AND it would help solve the balance issues with KHDs.

    CB, I hope you're reading this thread. Pretty good suggestions in here, just from a player's perspective.
     
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  8. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    Make AHD really Assaulty? Maybe a bonus to Spotlight program or a spotlight L2.
    This way you could take an AHD and use it even against non tech armies (if you have the rem)

    Tldr: Assault HD should be a really assault piece, capable of raining death on non-equipped armies.
    They should be the reason army in the lore use KHD
     
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  9. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Spotlight is already decent, making it stronger (no negative mod or higher B) might actually be broken, especially with how nasty Spec Fire is becoming these days (Emily, Druze). The problem is not the program so much as it is the order investment to get there and do that, when one could just blast the target with Spec Fire using the same orders.

    A powerful link-busting program would be interesting because it would entirely remove SSL2 for the target, halve their B in reply to direct shots, etc. Oblivion already does that, and well, but the restricted set of targets makes most units immune to it.

    Letting AHDs have a program that can target link troops of -any- kind with a hit that is temporary and easy to reverse on the target's following active turn is an interesting toolbox piece without being too powerful.
     
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  11. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    So, just to understand: CB shouldn't buff spotlight because Specfire is ok. And at the same time, Spotlight is worthless because you are better just Specfiring without expending orders trying to Target something?

    Seems to me that you are connecting 2 things that you should not directly connect.
    (I know it does not make sense, bear with me)

    Targeted issue should be solved separately than Specfire supposed OP-ness (btw, is this a thing?)


    Forward observe is basically free and gives Targeted with WIP with R 2 and a pretty good range. It does not make the user more vulnerable.

    Spotlight gives a Wip-3 check with R1. With 8" range. It does cost more point/SWC and it makes the user more prone to dying (by being hacker).
    Want more range on spotlight? Use repeater (paid separately, but they also increase the likelihood of death).

    What I know is that I was never targeted via spotlight. But I was targeted many times with FO and less with Satlock.

    The inherent strenght of FO is that I can actually force you into a difficult choice, If I'm willing to let my guy die. With Spotlight that's not possible. I can only spend my order and hope that you don't reset. Given how many tinbot, reboot,fairy dust and/or hacking program, that's pretty difficult.

    I think that if I invest a lot of points/swc into Hacker and repeater. Risking a lot to die with KHD and everything else, i should at least be much more capable to Target a troop than a guy with WIP 12 and 1 point skill.
    Don't you think?
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What's the difficult choice with Forward Observe? "I'll shoot you back" is the typical choice and it's usually not very hard.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That would be good.


    That's why Spotlight (the hacking program) doesn't require LOF. :smiling_imp:
     
  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    My long running wish for hacking is that AHDs were more broadly useful against non-hackable troops, that KHDs remained as they are, that EVOs remained basically as they are, but that HDs, HD+s and DHDs/WHDs basically became board-wide anti-hacking devices that could protect you against enemy hacking attacks.

    Kind of a rock-paper scissors but more that AHDs were the ones that kind of focused on disabling enemy troops in general, KHDs are aggressive anti-hacking, DHDs are defensive anti-hacking, HDs do everything, HD+s do everything but better and EVOs do support better.
     
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    the HD and HD+ seem to be in a good place as the currently are, the DHD/WHD just need to become the same device and get a bit of a rework.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn't be a bad adjustment, assuming that DHDs and WHDs get merged. Right now, DHDs are straight-up worthless, you are better off not taking the DHD!
     
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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought that the defensive HDs should grant bonuses to the entire army by being present (kind of like the EVO benefits). Essentially, you want there to be a strong incentive to take out the D/WHD first IMO. Something like a -3 or -6 to all hacking attempts against your army while in a non-null state (that doesn't stack with tinbots or actual programs like kaleidoscope).

    Another thought I had was to make a D/WHD allow f2f with any enemy hack regardless of whether the D/WHD was the target, but that would break fundamental rules and structure of the game...
     
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  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I agree

    One other way of making certain devices more attractive would be to make the load out of the total profile tighter. Giving more assault hackers SMGs or something. The Brawler AHD is really good for that.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They're not worthless, they're just extremely expensive and the high-level Shield programs need to be changed to be more on par with Redrum. I'm talking about Counterstrike being +3/-3 instead of -3/-3 and Breakwater/Zero Pain merged into a B2 +0/-6 or possibly even better.

    But the biggest issue is that a DHD shouldn't cost more than an AHD, it should cost less than a KHD. If this was implemented, DHD would be an excellent source of Fairy Dust, Controlled Jump, Hack Transport Aircraft and hacking related classified objectives. I would *love* if Zuyong had a 29/0 DHD with plain combi, *love* if Zhanshi had one for 13/0. But a Zuyong at 37/1 would've been really utterly useless and the Wardriver DHD is a waste of ink.
     
  20. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    It's definitely harder than saying "reset".
    If the target is in suppression, you can outrange it.
    If you have other possible weapons you can force it to chose its aro before your attack.
    If you're close, you can force him in a FtF instead of using a template weapon.
    If the target uses a template weapon you can basically trade a 20ish point troop for a targeted on a TAG.
    Lots of choices, I'd say.

    With Spotlight? Just say "reset" and throw a dice.
    Unless you're also an hacker. In that case, brainblast him to he'll and back. (TBH, If the target is an hacker you're definitely doing something wrong if you want to Spotlight him.)