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Thinking Outside the Box

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by TheDiceAbide, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
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    Hey everyone, I recently wrote an article on my blog and thought it would be good to share here. If you like it, check out my other articles on TheDiceAbide.com

    The way I approach thinking about Infinity is a less like a standard miniatures game, but instead I think of it as a sophisticated puzzle game. Most other miniature games, a troop is measured in 3-4 main areas, typically how well it moves, shoots, fights, and survives. Each player then takes turn using all of those steps through movement phases, shooting phases, and combat phases. While these fundamentals are similar in Infinity, the wide range of capabilities of even the most mundane rifle-wielding grunt, really differentiates Infinity from the rest.

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    THE SITUATION

    Most gamers have more time to write lists, than to actually play games, which results in people spending a lot of time honing and fine-tuning their lists, looking for every possible advantage. During this practice however, it is incredibly easy to get into the pattern of "this unit is bad, this unit is good," because you're looking to optimize based on your assumptions of what a unit will do during a game. When I start writing lists, I generally go for my favorite units first, especially in sectorials where I tend to go for my favorite core link (like 4 grunt snipers and a lieutenant LGL, or 3 Keisotsu, a Brawler AHD, and Tanko Missile Launcher). This technique is quite helpful for writing a list, with some predictable results, as it uses the units we're most familiar with. The downside however, is that it can result in us dismissing really effective units that we don't have experience with.

    I'm firmly of the belief that there is no such thing as a bad unit in Infinity (except the Wardriver), but what does happen a lot is improper application, or not using a troop to it's fullest extent. In Infinity there are plenty of pieces of equipment, or skills, which will get used all the time, such as mimetism, high BS, dogged, smoke grenades, etc. But there are other pieces of equipment, which are far more situational, which means to use them, you need to either fall into, or create the situation where they're effective, things like cybermines, killer hacking devices, multispectral visors, and so on.

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    THE CHALLENGE

    The most fun I've had during games of Infinity is during the last turn of the game, when I'm narrowly behind and I need to use every resource available to secure a win. That's when players start getting creative, pulling all the stops, and really figure out all the different things a troop can do. So why don't we do this all the time?

    Comfort is the problem. We get comfortable using the same units, in the same roles, not really exploring new solutions until it's the last minute and you're forced to. It is my belief that by breaking out of our comfort zones, and taking units that we leave on the bench, we can improve our skill as players. If there are profiles, or even pieces of equipment that you often disregard, give them some game time, not just to say you did, but actively put effort into making that unit shine.

    Cybermines are a good example of a maligned piece of equipment, that I personally think is pretty great. Despite being new, I have the (mis)fortune of having multiple Tunguska wielding opponents, ready and happy to put them on the table. Something which they've made a good job of pointing out is that they allow their KHD profile troops to carry a disposable hack that works against troops which KHDs normally cannot affect. Furthermore, they are not avoided by a Dodge, so if you drop one and then go to shoot an HI that is in the area of effect, they either need to Reset against the mine, or dodge/shoot back against the model firing at them. Either way, they're going to get hit by something.

    Another example is the lone Karakuri, which is a unit I totally ignored until recently, and something that seems often ignored by just about everyone. Lately, I've included a MK12 Karakuri as a lone fighter in my Ikari and have been pleasantly surprised. She is a deadly gunfighter, competent specialist, tough as hell to kill, and brings a direct template weapon. She isn't cheap, but when you get used to leveraging all of her equipment and skills, the Karakuri becomes well worth the cost.

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    UNFAMILIAR LISTS

    This weekend I've got a tournament coming up, and I'm going to use Ikari. I've still probably only played less than 10 games with them, but I noticed I quickly got into the habit of starting every list with a Keisotsu + Brawler + Tanko link, and a handful of Yuan Yuan. For this tournament, I won't be using any of my familiar staples, and in one of my lists, I won't even take a Fireteam: Core. The scenarios we'll be playing are Highly Classified, Power Pack, and Capture and Protect. Highly Classified requires a lot of specialists, something with Ikari struggles with, while Power Pack heavily benefits the Yuan Yuan that I won't be taking.

    Obviously the list labeled "Highly Classified" is the list I intend on using in that scenario, while my second list is the one I'll probably use in the other two.

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    With the highly classified list, I gave up taking a Fireteam Core, they tend to be static, and require a lot of work to maneuver, which can be challenging when you're trying to move into range of an enemy HVT. Instead, I focused on a lot of individual pieces which can more easily move into position, while maintaining a firebase with the Tanko Haris and the Rui Shi. The Karakuri will be my specialist of choice for Forward Observing, but can also effectively clear any ground she needs during the advance. Instead of using Yuan Yuan for smoke, I've got a pair of Desperados, and a Cube Jäger gives me the flexibility of deploying a Paramedic on whichever side is easier to get to the enemy HVT with. I am stuck with only one unit with D-charges, and it's my engineer, which is less than optimal, but I'll have to manage. Normally the Ninja KHD is the go-to profile, so I wanted to try out the AHD to mix things up. The AHD profile costs a ton more points, but allows my Ninja to use Spotlight, and become a bigger threat in the active turn with that combi rifle.

    List two might seem a little closer to home, since I've played Druze quite a bit before, though the Ikari iteration of the fireteam is significantly less flexible. Instead of having a Clipper and Brawler bringing the link down in price, I've got a Tanko missile launcher, which adds to it. I decided that since this link was going to be my main power house, that I should spring for a few extra points, upgrading the regular Druze to carry panzerfaust, making every member of the link incredibly deadly. Next I needed a piece to be a tough DataTracker, normally I'd go for a Daiyōkai, but instead I wanted to put the Al Fasid HRL in the list, since I just love that model. The rest is fairly similar to the Highly Classified list, bringing a doctor and engineer, trio of Keisotsu for lieutenant hiding, and a pair of Desperados for smoke and general annoyance.

    These lists feel like they should have all the tools I need to accomplish the missions, but lack many, if not all, of the key units I've got used to bringing in the past, plus bringing a couple profiles that I've never taken before.

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    TRY IT YOURSELF

    At the end of the day, Infinity is a game, and games are most fun when they're both challenging and rewarding. Obviously, if you're perfectly content running the same 10-model list, day in and day out, then this advice isn't for you. However, if you think a faction you play has becoming boring or stale, or just isn't good (*cough* PanO players *cough*), then maybe you should spend a bit of effort trying out the tools that you've previously written off.

    There are lots of good/interesting units in this game, but not everything is easy to use. Here are a few things that I really like, or think are worth considering, but rarely see:

    • Morat Vanguard. Back up Anyat with an HMG to cover longer ranges, and a few specialists, to create an inexpensive, but versatile core link.
    • Knights of Montessa. It blows my mind how few vanilla PanO lists seem to use knights of any variety, but the Knight of Montessa is something I'd use nearly every time, specifically the light grenade launcher or light rocket launcher profiles.
    • NeoTerra Bolts. The internet loves to hate them, but I just see linked E/M grenades and drop bears, with a 65% chance of ignoring mines, making them great mid-field defenders. Yes a Haris would be awesome, but I think a core can still work fine (even without 5 members).
    • Caledonia Moramers. The T2 X-visor version, in suppressive fire, is a massive road block that can't be stopped with hacking, in cover your enemy will have to contend with -6 to hit and ARM8, with Dogged.
    • Kanren. The Kanren often gets overlooked in favor of the Ninja Killer Hacker. While the Ninja KHD is incredibly optimized for a single task, the Kanren KHD, carries a combi rifle and is able to surprise shot, so can still put the hurt on non-hackers.

    What units do you like using that you don't see others using that often? What do you like to do to play outside the box and expand your thinking?
     
  2. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    I feel like this is where the big issue with regards to Bolt exists.

    The "internet loves to hate them" because in a Sectorial with some issues that have existed almost since inception, the signature Neoterran Linkable unit for the Sectorial isn't even really able to work well in a Link Team(a hallmark feature of Sectorials)...and is even a relatively recent addition to the faction!

    Haris, Duo, Trio, Mixed Links--whatever. Just something to make them seem more accessible and signature of Neoterra would go a long way establishing more good will towards the unit...

    Along with a few more interesting/unique profiles. Marksman Rifle, SMGs, Feuerbachs...there's all kinds of goodies that can be added/utilized to make them really have a more widespread appeal for an AVA Total unit.
     
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  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Great post/essay.

    For the Mormaer, the main issue is that in generic Ariadna you're almost always better off paying the extra 5pt for a Veteran Kazak. He loses a point of ARM but gains Mimetism (for -9 in Suppressive Fire), full-on NWI instead of Dogged, Veteran L1, Sixth Sense L2 and a Light Flamethrower.
     
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  4. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    This is a great explaination! It's this perspective that has had me playing 90% Corregidor since late N2.

    Sometimes it's frustrating because people go on and on asking for faction attention and when they get it it's old news for them within 3 months and they go back to it.
     
  5. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    Honestly, this rings rather close to home for me.

    I say rather close, since instead of having a mentality of ''I should try out this unit/profile to explore potential strengths I may have overlooked'', I instead have the mentality of ''Okay. This thing/idea looks cool. I will use this thing/idea. I don't care if this thing/idea has any initial signs of being an effective thing/idea. I will make it work. I will force it to work.''

    And that's the story of me liking Zhanyings and Guilang Snipers perhaps a bit too much for common reason and sense.

    P.S.: Agree with the Mormaer and Bolt parts. I can see why people dislike them, but... they're just so goddamn stylish in all honesty. And I am indeed willing to sacrifice all common sense in favor of more style points!
     
  6. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Why y'all hate on my Anyat/Vanguard core link? Literally how I played my MAF for years following her release...
     
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  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It's an internal balance issue more than anything else. In MO he has huge competition with other Knights with cooler tricks, and in SAA he competes with the Guarda (and we all know who wins that one.) I think the Montesa is an awesome piece, but it's more a problem with internal competition than anything else. Give me a Montesa-like unit in JSA and I'll take it in probably half of my lists, though.
     
  8. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Heh. Give Shikami Mech Deployment and you'll probably see them in lists, too.
     
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  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Actually give mech deploy Gecko please.
     
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  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Which really underscores the biggest problem with vanilla.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how this is anything but a problem with the cost of the involved skills and stats.
     
  12. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    I would disagree it is a problem, so long as the unit has a place in sectorial.

    Take BaghMari for example. Nisse or Kamau are much better options in vanilla, but they shine in Acontecimento.
     
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  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So even here Teutons gets no love, or even the OP lost all hopes in them ?;P

    (hint Montesa are "overused" when you compare them to Teutons)
     
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  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    Love it, absolutley love it and its certainly the approach I take to list building and units.
     
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  15. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    Great article. Brings up good points that I strongly agree with.

    If I really want to win a game, I choose units that I am familiar and thus comfortable with. I am more likely to use them correctly and not forget about possible tricks. I have already mastered the tricks possible with those units. The downside is that I am less likely to learn new tricks with new units. I don't think I would be more likely to learn new tricks in the pressure of the last turn if I have to be inventive to win a game. Especially not in the haste of tournament play.

    I see it like chess: You don't learn tactics while you are playing. You learn them from and then practice them doing puzzles; This will enable you to find the tactical patterns in your games.

    Now we don't have tactic puzzles in Infinity. We have to play games to learn how to use units. I think casual games are more suitable to learn new tricks with units we are not comfortable with yet.

    Learn to use the different units one by one, don't overwhelm yourself and only take the units you are familiar with to tournaments. I recommend not starting a second faction before mastering the first one. Now please dont ask me: "how do you know when you have mastered a faction?" or "Prophet, are you sure you have mastered Ariadna yet?" :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: Just take this as my general advice which of course you don't have to stick to.

    So by all means yes, do try new units. I agree that there are very few truly bad units in the game. It is just internet talk that convinces people that certain units are bad. Try for yourself. Just not during a tournament that you really want to score well in.
     
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  16. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    To the last point I can say I mostly agree, but I do tend to take home gold when I throw absolute curveballs at my local tourney meta. "NOONE EXPECTS DOUBLE TIKBALANGS" :D
     
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  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    Honestly, tournament or not, if I can bring and/or do something stupid, odds are... I will bring and/or do something stupid.
    Simply because I find that more fun.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Same here. Our meta is shaping up sufficiently that this no longer gives me an advantage, however, and at the moment I feel like I need to start finding those comfortable units and basic lists to advance my gameplay instead of hunt for original ideas to build my list around.
     
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  19. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I think a lot of people could solve their own problems by giving it a genuine attempt to just play thru it. I know some people are and still have the problem, but if someone who doesn't have your problem says "you need to do this" and you say "there's no point I just know that's not enough" you just want to have a problem.
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I see you too are a man of culture

    Or alternatively you've read all my complaining in the JSA subforums
     
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