Yeah. With Zuyong stats and wide range of cqb equipment (mines and e/maulers with minelayer). Also add specialist operative on every profile and one killer/assault hacker. Maybe 5 different profiles of these guys would bring IA much needed midfield fighter.
Numbers. Counting number of profiles, and attempting to not count the same character twice (so only 1 count for each of Joan, and ISS only gets Miranda counted once, etc) and not counting irregular ABH or Warcor, we have a range of roughly 16 (Bakunin) to 20 (ISS) unique non-REM profiles (on that note, Nomads have more faction-unique REMs than ISS does while Caledonia ends up in similar numbers but without REMs at all*). IA currently has around 7 profiles. Adding in the Zhanshi (regardless if Zhanshi gets in or if we get another sub-15 infantry unit) gets us to 10, that means we're looking at a bare minimum of 5 profiles to get IA to even remotely the same level of options as other sectorials. For reference, these are the 10 units I've included: Zhanshi Zhanshi Yisheng Zhanshi Gongcheng Tiger Sun Tze v1 (possibly v2 as well) Zuyong Yan Huo Shang-Ji Hac Tao Guijia This list is severely lacking mid-field interference, snipers and DZ guards. It's completely devoid of actual skirmishers and actual warband. It only has one unit with any level of marker state and two units with mimetism, plus it has nearly no forward deployment of any description, no visors other than REMs, no sensor other than REMs, and no troops in the 15 to 25 range. The list also doesn't have any grenades or grenade launchers outside of Zhanshi. Interestingly enough, Tigers has near monopoly on most of the stuff this sectorial is short on. Of note is also that absolutely none of the sectorial's listed MOD stacking or stripping units can link. No Bagh-Mari with the mimetic link and no Bao with their MSV2 link. I'm really, really, digging the idea of a HI Locust, it fills a lot of the most glaring omissions. I'm looking at this list, thinking "how the hell does this deal with Muttas?", however. I'm starting to think a grenadier (preferably linkable) is what is second on the list of what's needed, far above Shooting Stars. Another wish-list item is an actual light TAG (light cavalry) to run tandem with Guijia. * Unrelated, but without REMs I can understand why some people feel Caledonia is limiting. They simply miss the generic choices everyone else has without having bodies make up for it.
Forget dealing with Muttas, how does this list deal with a normal, perfectly average, available to almost all armies, TR bot with an HMG?
The Adepticon seminar mention of the S5 HI was in response to a question about YJ getting a light TAG. Seems unlikely that we would get one with that answer.
Answer is "same way Pan-O does, but at 1 lower BS". Hac Tao HMG is the most obvious answer, but you can't have that model in every list. From Haramaki theorising, the Zuyong ML in a 5-man link should be the second best thing, provided you can get outside of the REM's +3 band. And from memory, it's a pretty convincing kill statistic versus surprisingly negligible risk (nearly literally crits only as risk). But as noted, it is missing in the marker state department, especially considering it has no smoke nor eclipse. As an aside on this point, it's mostly markers that can hit a target from 33+" that's missing, Daofei can't pull this duty. To reliably take care of TR REMs, you need that range. If the S5 HI can perform similar duties as a light TAG would pull, that's not as much of a concern unless we get another slew of TAG-centric missions. Granted, it's going to miss the ability to punch upwards in the active turn that the Pan-O light TAGs does, since it won't have Fatality L1
I fear that IA can overwhelm us with amazing units and brutal attack pieces. That it will be either playing with 7 models or every list will be with zhanshi core and 2 out of 7 murderbots. I don't want another merovingia where the only question is which link do I want to accompany 4 chasseurs. (I know that you can play them differently by you get the point)
So something that we haven't really considered is Aleph loner units, which seems to be a common trait of Hyperpower sectorials (NCA, Shock Army, and ISS all have them). Now while I personally don't like Aleph loners, (largely for thematic and aesthetic reasons, not because Aleph profiles are bad) that doesn't mean they won't be there. We could end up with Dasyus or Naga for midfield pressure, for example, instead of a new chinese unit. Again, personally i'd rather have a new chinese unit but who knows what CB is going to do, and I think we'd be remiss if we omitted Aleph profiles from our speculation.
On the other hand, the IA could end up like Neoterra. Very limited infiltration options and very focused on offensive power. Except IA would have HI links and probably HI haris as well.
Maybe, though that's not living up to the promise of playing differently compared. I've heard NCA is very effective, but gods I really don't want to play that one, looks terribly boring (it's probably the sectorial I've looked at the lleast, had to look it up to see what you meant). Hexa and Locust does wonders for handling most of the stuff I pinned down as currently missing in IA. I do hope it's very aggressive, though. What else is power armour for?!
Where's the :oops: emoji? Says something about how much I use Hsein... Heh. Yan Huo FA2 would be evil. I like it! I'd like to bump the Shang Ji up to Elite or Specially Trained, and making them Elite would probably be the better slot. Gives us an excuse to load them with skills. Since IIRC Crane Agents wear the same armor, it's hard to tweak the statline too much. Best we can do is adjust skills and equipment to make the Shang Ji actually superior to the older armors. The Shooting Star AD HI would make sense as an Elite (same place Tigers are). A new S5 transformer would be fun, but how would we arm it (assuming that it keeps broadly the same profiles as a Su Jian)? One suggestion for a named-character Su Jian was Sapper and HMG in the combat form, but SMG and no HMG in the mobility form. I think for balance, we will see Zuyong Gongcheng and Zuyong Yisheng with separate AVAs from the line Zuyong (and possibly no AVA in vanilla at all!). One thing I noticed is that we'd have to give the Zuyong Yisheng the Baggage rule so it could CASEVAC models with higher PH (or put the doctor into Shang Ji armor for PH14). I think we're going to keep the Guijia, unlikely to get a new TAG for the Invincible Army. (I'd like to get a S6 ARM6 light TAG with Holo2 for the Blue Wolf, but that's for the White Banner!) That's exactly the point. Because they didn't overlap much, you couldn't really make a Chinese unit fill the same role. With the JSA units gone, now they can make a Chinese unit to fill those roles! It means that there aren't any 20-25pt HI in the list anymore. It means that you can drop the cost of Zuyong a little (~2pts a profile) without messing up anything else in vanilla. Because let's be honest, Zuyong are a bit pricey to be usable as a Core link team, and making them a mixed link of Shang Ji+Zuyong just makes that problem worse, to the tune of +10 points per Shang Ji. It means you could do a Chinese Shikami/Ayyar role HI, because the Invincible Army is really lacking midfield and speed. (No bikes, no infiltrators unless we get the Daofei, and Daofei don't seem to be likely. Sadly. I'm ignoring the Ninja for the moment, because I don't think a suspect-loyalty Ninja is going to be in the New Model Army) I'm expecting mixed fireteams, but sticking one or two Shang Ji into a Zuyong Core doesn't really help. Makes an already-expensive core even more expensive! Example: Zuyong Core link team ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) 3.5 SWC | 162 Points versus mixed Zuyong+Shang Ji Core link team ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) SHÀNG JÍ Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40) 3 SWC | 182 Points That's a painful increase! I liked and quoted this because it is something we should consider. I don't like the idea, but it's possible. I think NCA is the closest-related Sectorial to the Invincible Army, it has Devas and Garudas from Aleph. I think Garuda (AD S2 REMs) are unlikely, between Tigers and Shooting Stars. And if you look at the Bolts, they're ~5 points cheaper per profile than Zuyong.
What about the Baggage Drones, they can move your troopers, no need for the Doctor to do it herself. What would complement this would be a G:Servant with Baggage.
Actually, my issue is this: They either replace the JSA units with very similar ones, which is stupid because that's not actually new that's just selling different models. That is, that doing that would be basically just removing models so that you have to buy more Or, the new units don't really replace them (which I suspect will be the case) and therefore won't actually really overlap with what the JSA units did, making that aspect of their removal moot. Well, first of all, Haramaki weren't pegged for IA for pretty obvious reasons, so there was already space for a lower cost HI for IA. Secondly, dropping the cost of the Zuyong wouldn't really be an issue alongside the Haramaki (the only comparably cheap Hi) because they are radically different in role and usage. Which harkens back to my above point: there's already design space, and the removal isn't actually opening up any. As for the Shang Ji, that issue comes from Shang Ji falling into the worst place in the roster. They're not cheap enough to be used frequently; their not good enough as "quality HI" (eg, Crane, Hsien, Hac Tao, Daofei); and they don't really do anything that isn't done cheaper (Zuyong, Wu Ming) or better (Hac Tao, Hsien, Crane). Shang Ji need a hefty overhaul. Again, my point is that the Japanese units weren't actually an issue in that regard. They wouldn't be present in the IA sectorial, and there is plenty of space to design IA Shikami/Ayyar without making an orange carbon copy. Mech Deploy HI with close ranged weapons (eg, twin SMG) and increased mobility (maybe 6-2, and/or Super Jump). It doesn't need ODD to duplicate the Shikami, it could have Mimetism, Holo2, Camo, or even Hyper Dynamics. Or you could go Limited Camo, Surprise Shot L2 and some other ambush mechanics. That's entirely distinct in Yu Jing (basically a YJ Ayyar: but that's not an issue, since JSA didn't have them anyway!) Basically, I think that the justification for the removal of JSA to 'make design space' is an utter crock of shit.
It's can be Something really different like a very mobile unit (super jump+climbing plus > Who say Shikami?)with low combat skills (Mv = 6/6, ARM 2) that turns into a devil turret like 360 ° V + total reaction HRMC (Mv =0/0, ARM 9). A piece that, well positioned, forces your opponent to review his approach tactics or secure an area of the battleground. Like that no duplicate of the Su Jian and a much more tactical unit!...it's just an idea absolute not a speculation.
JSA leaving does things for design space for ISS, WB, vanilla, and IA. Did I mention vanilla. That's where the shoulder rubbing takes place.
@Kallas , that discussion was about units in vanilla. Having say, 4x ~25pt HI in Vanilla would be scary for a lot of people. Also, ~25pts is below the average cost to run 10 models in 300 points, so the remaining models can be beefier. Though honestly, I think the most HI I can stuff into 300pts right now is 7, with two REMs Zuyong Core plus support ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 7 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59) 6 SWC | 275 Points Open in Infinity Army Yes, that has a Daofei in it, because otherwise there's no midfield presence. You can add a Baggagebot and the Weibing FO+Sensorbot to make 9 orders in 300 points. or something like this: Invincible Army, Zuyong Core and Shang Ji Haris ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 39) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) 6 SWC | 284 Points Open in Infinity Army Not much space for anything else, I'd add that Weibing Combi+FO sensorbot, which just so happens to be 16 points. But again, it's 9 orders at 300 points. In either of those examples, where's the new cool stuff? Where's the Shooting Star? Where's the other 4 new units for the faction? ========== Another point of discussion is what will be in the IA starter box. I'm expecting 3x Zuyong combirifles and the Yan Huo M-HMG. I'd like to see a Shang Ji, probably Multirifle, and a Daofei hacker. Though with the IA and what shows up in everyone else's Operation: Whatever boxes, I think the Shang Ji will be replaced with a Shooting Star.
I wouldn't take an HI link and a HI haris. Too many points. I'd rather take some supporting units with the HI link.
Well, sure, but how do we get them loaded onto the Baggagebot in the first place? (fluffwise, not ruleswise) Not to mention, we probably don't want 4 models with Baggage (2x G:Servant, 2x Baggagebots) in the same 300pt army list, either! I agree, but look at my first list. HI link plus 2x HI support models, which only leaves enough points for 1 or 2 REMs. I'd really like for the Invincible Army to be able to do something like the crazy HI+TAG lists the JSA can do. I mean look: Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 3 OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28) DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86) DAIYŌKAI MULTI Marksman Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 52) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Yeah, no support for fixing glue or EM, I know, but you could replace the REM with an engineer and helperbot. 6x HI and a TAG, though. I think that the Invincible Army should be able to do something like this, plus have some HI specialists. h Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) YĀN HUǑ MULTI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53) DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59) Placeholder ZÚYǑNG Gongcheng Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 31) 6 SWC | 305 Points 5 points over. Now, we could probably squeeze some points out of the Zuyong Gongcheng profile, just give it an SMG instead of the Combi. Maybe swap the dual Breaker pistols for a Heavy Pistol of some flavor. But I really want to squeeze those 5 points out of the Zuyong as a whole.
Expanding a bit on the whole JSA leaving room for design. Keisotsu - With Keisotsu gone, we no longer have three light infantry in the sub-15 space which competes for attention with little difference between them other than WIP. Keisotsu gone means there is potentially room for a new unit where the basic profile is between 8 and 13 points that can be designed to not be a linear upgrade or downgrade between Zhanshi and Celestial Guard. I'm still hopeful that CB will seize on this for IA. Raiden - Raidens offered a good deal for a deployment zone guard and link team deterrent. Being medium infantry, they struck a balance between price and survival. Conceivably, there is now room for a new and different (medium?) infantry as well as cheap deployment zone locked ARO troops hidden behind either camo or limited camo. This could even be combined Grunt-style with the point above. Oniwaban - this is the big deal. Oniwaban represented two major things; they were one of the strongest anti-TAG units in game and they also represented the pinnacle of Yu Jing "let's start on their side". With Oniwaban gone, you might be thinking not only inside a box but confining yourself to just a corner of the box if you think this means there's room for a TO camo infiltrating melee badass - not so! There's far more room now, with the most outlandish idea being a Yu Jing impersonator or Superior Infiltration heavy infantry! Shikami - had a bit of everything. We've touch on this before, but this also opens up the "hero" unit option for Yu Jing. Minelayers - JSA had half of Yu Jing's minelayers and mines. This is something that's not something that's gone from the faction, but there's now more possibilities for profiles that deploy mines to protect the deployment zone. Tokusetsu - a minor issue, but with fewer docs/engies this also opens up for more varied docs/engies for Yu Jing without bumping into a glass ceiling that we haven't been told about. Smoke - there's two kinds of units that benefit greatly from smoke, one is the MSV2 units and the other is the melee unit. Having lost nearly all of the melee monsters, this might open up for more smoke and possibly even eclipse without too much concern. I'm writing this fully aware that these concerns doesn't seem to have stopped them from cramming literally every power-combo possible into Aleph, but hey! This might mean we'll see heavy infantry with light smoke grenade launcher or smoke grenades, something at least I've been wanting for the simple fact that it'd give me reliable and solid smoke without relying on "let's run into a mine" Shaolin or "can't hit the broad side of a barn with a grenade launcher" Celestial Guard. Again, this is not something that we'll necessarily see for all of or much of in IA, but it will affect future trickle releases and White Banner.
I'm going to be a language asshole for a moment. Cease means to stop. Seize means to grab. Pretty sure you meant to use seize there. Now. I assume you're talking about something like an Auxilia?
Well, if Daofei are going to be White Banner rather than Invincible Army I'd say that leaves design space for a Mechanised Deployment or Infiltrating HI. Something broadly similar to a Harumaki but deployed in the midfield would be interesting (and make for a similar unit to the Montesa Knight for PanOceania). That seems like a possibility. I'd say some kind of ALEPH loan unit is a certainty, and Dasyu in particular seem very likely. They help fill the Infiltration slot for the army and aren't used in any other force (not, probably, in Varuna due to the clash with Croc Men). There's also a possibility of Agema filling the "MSV2 Slot" (which I also thought might go into Varuna, but the MSV2 Kamau makes me think that might not be the case). Either way, it'll be interesting to see what else we get to see.
